Are the Amish Truly Born Again?

By Joe Keim

November 8, 2011

Dear MAP, I felt led to write you after I received a few emails from concerned friends. They knew I was planning to join the Amish but after reading on your website they decided they better "warn" me.

They wrote with a concerned heart that the Amish are not saved/born again. They were under the impression that no Amish are born again, saved by the grace of Jesus. It took a lot of convincing on my part that not all Amish do preach about Salvation but that a good number of them DO.

I would NEVER join a church that didn't believe in the Biblical and only way to get to Heaven, through our Savior Jesus Christ.

I've felt God leading me to the Amish faith for about 9 years. Before I moved into an old order Amish church (I am currently at my "English" mother's house to send the email) I had two different meetings: one with the Bishop and another with the ministers. In each meeting, I asked how they believe one gets to Heaven. I received the Biblical answer as found in Romans and other New Testament scriptures. What they said was exactly what I'd heard growing up in non-denom. and baptist churches. They also assured me being Amish will not get me to Heaven.

I was satisfied with these answers and followed God's will for me and am now a very happy and peace-filled Amish girl (though I am not yet a church member).

Before I even moved to this Michigan Amish church district I attended church for 5 years. During these years, every time I attended church or had notes taken and sent to me the minister preaching stressed being born again, Salvation through grace and having a personal relationship with Christ (these were the exact terms used).

I have visited several other MI Amish churches (Mio, Newaygo, Manton, Evart, Fremont etc.) who have all used these terms, and by their testimonies, I would say the church has put all importance on Salvation.

I want to add that I respect your ministry and I do realize that there are a lot of unsaved Amish. I just don't agree with implying that all Amish are unsaved, bad parents to youth and legalistic. I know from experience, this is not the truth about all Amish.

May God and His love surround you and that your ministry will run over with God's love!

--Kate

People with Amish and Old Order Mennonite backgrounds respond to Kate's message -- below. As you will see, the responses come from eighteen different states, which should give the reader a well balanced and honest answer to: are the Amish truly born again? If so, about how many?

Thanks to all who took time to respond. Your comments are priceless and will help us all get a better understanding of our beloved people and where they stand concerning the new birth ---- as given to us in John chapter three.

Note: I encourage you to share your own thoughts at the bottom of the page.

--Joe Keim

P.S. If you read these comments and question your own salvation, please go to: Where Will I Spend Eternity?

Ohio - 11/9/11

--refer to article 36, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

My thoughts on Katie! She has been there such a short time and thinks she see's and hears what I had not heard in the 42 years I was Amish.

What! They believe if we don't stay Amish we're going to hell! What if she doesn't stay Yankee! double standards!

We had a guy that had joined our church when we were first married and he joined and learned the language all of it, he was a generous soul and helped everyone out that he could but then after about 10 years he just up and left.

If the church she is going to truly Preached Grace and Salvation It would have hit the airwaves and we would know about it!

"For from the fulness of the heart the mouth speaks'.

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"

And when you receive the Holy Spirit you transform and want to share it with all!

Yes I believe some (few) Amish know the truth but haven't been set free yet!I know 2 bishops that I think know the truth and yet don't Preach it to their Church .(afraid of being denounce?) I don't know? But I truly believe that if there were a lot THEN there would be a Revival like we had not seen!

Praise The Lord it might be coming !!!!

I think people that were not born into the Amish have them up on pedestal with the lifestyle and quaint living they can not see past it.

Illinois - 11/9/11

--refer to article 35, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

From my few observations, the Michigan Amish groups understand and teach salvation more clearly than many. Kate made an interesting comment in that she is not a member yet. When she takes that step and becomes familiar with the inside working of the congregation, she will learn of the emphases placed on the lifestyle, language, rules, etc as means of keeping the group together and to help keep them on the narrow way.

If she is looking for security in a visible, tangible structure that waxes eloquent on salvation teaching she will likely find herself quite at home among the Michigan Amish.

If she is looking for lifelong continually deeper fellowship in the Holy Spirit I believe she will be disappointed.

Ohio

--refer to article 34, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I haven't lived in Holmes County for about 24 years, but when I did there were many Conservative Mennonite churches that definitely preached a salvation message, but the Amish were a different story. I may be wrong, but I had a lot of contact with Amish people. worked with them, and had reunions with them. I'm guessing, and only the Lord knows for sure, but I think it was less than 5 percent of any Amish people I knew believed in salvation by faith in Christ alone. Even in the Mennonite church where I grew up there was not an emphasis at all on salvation by faith in Christ. By saying that I don't claim to know everyone's heart, and where they ended up.

Please see Ezekiel 18. I do believe that I will see my Grandpa there and most of my uncles and my one aunt. Also bear in mind I have not lived in Holmes County for 24 years. Things can change in that time, but I don't think so.

Canada

--refer to article 33, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

The talk from any religious group is best weighed against actions. Almost all Amish will state, we don't believe you have to be Amish to be get to heaven. There are literally millions of Christians in China who have never heard of dressing plain. Never have any been persecuted for the way they dress. They would ask us where we get that from. They are persecuted for preaching Jesus Christ the solution for the sins of the world. Let one persecuted Christian speak to our church? Not unless they meet our form of dress and conduct. Why, they might even arrive in a car. How would we stop our people from adopting cars if we allowed that? The truth is action speaks louder than words. No, they do not really believe anyone outside their little domain of rightness is really saved. You can't have it both ways. Shunning awaits those who would try it.

But then again I have to appreciate that New Order Amish have approached the truth of salvation by grace, but decided to retain the Amish appearance. Probably to allow closer relations to their cousins. But the price of a bit of legalism is that it tends to encroach on grace. In order to relate to other Amish, you will need to not exercise your relationship to outside Christians. Recognizing for instance, Baptists as also being believers would be seen by their cousins as abandoning the faith. The fence is a dangerous place. That is where I see them.

Texas

--refer to article 32, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

As a former Amish minister of 14 years, now having left 18 years ago when I started to preach the gospel of Jesus, I wanted to answer your question, not that I have a good answer.

Some of the ministers now know the right answers to give, especially to seekers. But will that response really hold true?

They will tell you that this is the way to heaven. But then you will also have to become a member in the church. To become a member, you will have to meet all kinds of 'conditions'. Conditions which are required by the church and not by the Bible or by Christ. That is one point.

You can meet any number of Amish people who are nice to visit with and will know how to answer the question. But when it comes down to really living for the Lord, it will include the Amish church and an unquestioning obedience to it that is almost cult-like in it's demands on the life of the believer.

And another question for Katie, "If they (the Amish) are Christians, why do they refuse to fellowship with other Christians?"

And "If the church is that important, why did Jesus himself not institute it along with the rules and regulations a proper Christian church should have, including whom to fellowship with and whom to shun?"

Spirit recognizes spirit. Amish people will recognize Amish people anywhere in a heartbeat. Born again Christians will recognize and fellowship with born again Christians anywhere (in the world) without regard to denomination (which is not a thing that Jesus taught or condoned in any way).

unsure of state

--refer to article 31, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

In answer to the question of whether amish are born again or not we have to realize that each amish community has a different basis for theology.I had been to a lot of different community's before I left the amish and the differences in doctrine has always been a source of interest to me.

I was born in Wyoming, Del. My Mothers family came from Middlefield OH. When I was 5 my family moved to Dixon, MO. 10 years later we moved to Windsor, Mo. I left home when I was 20 years old. I had a living connection with my heavenly Father and tried to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to the best of my ability.After three mo. the Lord opened the Door for me to move in with my Grandparents in Seymour, IA. I went from a Godly environment to a very worldly one. God used that year with those amish to finish me with that setting. I moved back to Windsor for a brief period in the hopes things had changed in the home and the church as I had been told. A few weeks later I realized the princapals were the same and began seeking God's will for for me.

As a child growing up in Dixon we were immersed in sunday school, learning bible verses and bible based curriculum for our parochial school. This was the basis for my walk with God.

We had some interaction with the Mich. churches [as we called them ] as a family from there moved to Dixon. They are what I would call non traditional amish. They involve a group of churches that work with each other, basically the ones Kate mentioned and yes they teach the new birth. Where I would differ from most of them is in - They believe they have the power to instate someone into the church via teaching the 18 articles and baptism. If You follow the standards and live peacably it's a sure sign you are born again. I believe the Holy Spirit [ God ] is the only one who has the power to see into the depth of our heart and as the Church is the Body of Christ The moment we give our hearts to Him we are a member of the body. They would for the most part [All amish believe this] believe God gave the church to the apostles and the Holy Spirit was only for the ushering in of the church.I believe The Holy Spirit is just as active today as back then.

Through the leading of the Holy Spirit I moved to Wheatland, MO. which was also considered non traditional. They had Wed. eve. bible study and preached the newbirth. But as all people who diligently seek Gods Word we could no longer walk with the system so we stepped out.Because we did not move the rest of the community did. half of them left the amish.

Currently my wife and I and two children and my brother'inlaw and his family and an amish couple trying to start a new community are the only ones left here. We miss some of the heritage especially the community setting. God is very good to us.

I hope this gives you a better picture of some of the amish churches out there. One thing we know is the closer they walk in the truth the more their lives will change and the more they will be rejected by traditional amish.

Unsure of state

--refer to article 30, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

We grew up in an old order setting similar to yours than later moved to what a lot of amish refer to as the MI circle. Yes,there is a vast difference,with the MI churches preaching andteaching salvation by faith therefore practically shunned by the old-order circles. Nonthe less, when it came down to the "ring" you still had to be amish. They are as a whole much more receptive of other people and hasitate to use the ban as freely. Hope this helps.

Pennsylvania

--refer to article 29, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I would agree there is a greater understanding of salvation coming to the Amish people but I still think in our immediate area there would be less than 50% that truly know what Born again means etc.

I think most would still trust in their heritage & works to get into heaven..

I know there is more truth being preached in some areas in other states more then around here but also some areas know much less about salvation;

But overall I find most know (Have heard) about Jesus, but my question is rather; Does Jesus know them..
Are there sins under the blood?? Keep on preaching the good news because it is needed..

Please don't use my letter against the Amish because I believe they will yet see the truth & turn to Jesus!!

Ohio

--refer to article 28, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Having read the article by Kate, I was prompted to send an answer to you. I would never say there are no amish that are born-again. I only speak from my own experience & the experiences of some of those that I hold dear.I was born again at age 12, & often struggled with being misunderstood by my friends. Not until I was in my lower 50s, did I truly find freedom & then I left the amish.

When once you truly experience that freedom in Christ,that overpowering & wonderful freedom of being allowed to live as His Spirit is leading you, it is VERY hard to remain amish or any other "plain" church that has lots of standards. The legalism is harsh & demanding. As long as you are a "good" amish following all the man-made rules to the letter,without questioning, you will get along fine, & you will feel protected by all the rules. Also you will not experience the wrath of the ministers.

Once your spiritual eyes begin opening & you go to the Bible & really search, your eyes will open more & more on the error of lots of these so-called scriptural rules that are not found in God's Word. Then if you try to share what God has been showing you,you are "going off the strait path,& on a one-way street to hell". The "discipline in love" if you do believe the Word fully, & question any of these man-made rules, is harsh & unChristlike.

Finally, unless you lay down the Truths God thru His Spirit has revealed to you, you cannot stay amish or even Beachy-you are driven out, which in my experience was a good thing,even tho it is painful & scarring to be used by a "nonresistant" people like you are a heathen. From then on it is next to impossible to share your freedom in Christ with any of those in the church you came from.

This comes from someone who was in a new order amish church all my life, until I left in my mid-life. We did receive more tesaching, but the system is the same as it is all through the plain churches.

I hope I'm not saying too much & I know this isn't worded very good,but it comes from my heart. If you send this on, please keep my name anonymous. Thanks.

Ohio

--refer to article 27, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I was raised in a Beachy-Amish setting and married a girl from the Andy Weaver Amish Church--Dan-gma. We spent the first 15 years of our married life as members of the Older Order Amish Church (not Dan-gma). There are very few Amish in this area, Wayne and Holmes County, that would claim to be saved. They will tell you that being Amish will not save you and they will acknowledge that you can only be saved through Christ. They do not believe in assurance of salvation.

To the Amish, professing that you know you are saved is the ultimate proof that you are deceived. The few that profess salvation through Christ alone do not live in freedom. They interpret freedom in Christ to be a desire to abide by the rules of the church.

This also applies to most conservative Mennonites. The Mennonites are much more likely to profess Jesus as their personal Saviour but also cannot embrace freedom in Christ. The book of Galatians is practically taboo in both groups.

I understand how Kate could be taken in by these people, because they do know the right words to say and many preach salvation through Christ alone; and yet, their actions speak to the contrary. Their actions indicate that they believe in salvation through the church first and, almost as a side note, belief in Jesus. Challenging the authority of the church is equivalent to denying the authority of Christ.

Kate will probably not realize this is true unless she actually becomes a member and then later decides to leave.

Montana

--refer to article 26, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

We would say 'some' Amish are saved. I have 1 brother and 1 sister that are still with the Amish and they both profess to be saved through Jesus alone. Those that ARE saved and still with the Amish possibly have lots of wood, hay, and stubble. But so do most other denominations that profess to be saved. Does God look different at legalism or worldliness? They are both add-ons.

We have met many ex-Amish that went to the Michigan Amish churches while growing up. Hearing their testimonys one has to conclude that they had more light then the average Amish.

Kansas

--refer to article 25, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I personally lived in an Amish comunity called Ludington MI for 3 years. At that time the church was in such distress from the people fighting and backbighting amongst themselves that they said that everyone is dismissed and has to find a church that they can agree with and do whatever it takes to become a member with! That is when I moved into Garnett Kansas and asked to join there. They placed me under a 6 month proving time and in that time I saw the same thing happening amongst them here! So I was not involved in a church for around a year.

When Pastor Reuben Esh moved into the area and started what now is Beacon of Truth church I started attending and am very blessed there now!!

The thing about both the amish churches is that both believed in salvation only, to get to heaven, but had to much focus on the traditions and doctrines of there church to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to anyone! And I personally believe that if a church bases it's membership on the idea of any manmade doctrine or tradition then the Holy Spirit is probably not interested in being involved in them. If God and the Holy Spirit are first, the church will be alerted if they are in the wrong and will be corrected in a way that only God can!! If it takes fighting and control to keep the people in line then God is obviously not involved!!

Ohio

--refer to article 24, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

It has been my experience that most of the Old Order Amish trust in works rather than salvation by grace through face in Jesus Christ. I do not remember ever hearing an Amish person telling me that they know they are saved and have the assurance of going to heaven. They would always say "I hope so". As a 14 year old I heard an Amish deacon tell my father, " I don't want to hear that you got saved". This was when my parents were leaving the Amish.

I'm am confident that there some Old Order Amish that are saved,however they would still believe that it takes certain works to get to heaven.

Ohio

--refer to article 23, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Thanks for your email. I would like to give you a reply to your question about the Amish being born again or not. I do not know what church Kate goes to but it must not be like the churches in this area. We have heard preachers say being born again is water baptism, and others preaching that they do not know for sure that they are born again, but they hope they are. As you know, Joe, if you are born again you know it because you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I might be wrong,but I think most of the Amish in this area are not born again, they do not even know what it means.I would not encourage Kate to join with a Amish church. The Amish life might look good now,but the Amish faith is built on works, and man made rules.It is not Jesus saves, but Jesus plus works saves, and that is a false gospel

Pennsylvania

--refer to article 22, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

This is an interesting subject, there are definitely Amish that are born-again and live that way, but there are also Amish that get born-again and then just sit on their salvation not sharing the good news with others because that is the ordained ministries' job. There are not as many of them born-again as the Amish would like to think there are. I have siblings that are born-again but some have refused to do every commandment of the Bible that even they consciously know are true and have slid back into sin again. Maybe half of the Amish are born-again (although I doubt it). Only a quarter of them (if that many) are actually living it out in daily shoe leather.

Some of the settlements that Kate mentioned do actually preach the salvation message, but few are shown how to live it out the Bible way. When there's issues with some of the members of those churches, the ultimate law is still the Ordnung. The Ordnung MUST not be broken! Few fulfill the scriptures in their daily lives.

Georgia

--refer to article 21, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I just read your email about Kate joining the Amish. I grew up Amish in Indiana and I don't ever remember any minister or bishop say that you can KNOW that you can go to heaven because of what Jesus has done for us. There was always a "hope" that if you stayed Amish & kept the ordnung, you could hope to make it. I was always taught if you left the amish you were on the road to hell.

I do think there are some born-again christians in the Amish church, probably more so in new-order Amish churches than Old-order. But something is wrong when a group of Amish people can't even gather together to have a Bible study without fear about what the bishop will say!

We left the Amish about 18 yrs ago, I do have alot of family still Amish & I know they are still taught the same way I was when I was Amish.

New York

--refer to article 20, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Good to hear from you. I appreciate your honesty and wanting to represent the Amish accurately.

As far as the letter from Kate I would say she is probably right in her description of the churches she is a part of. I am familiar with this circle of churches and know and have heard them preach the way of salvation as described in the book of Romans. These churches are definately on the right track and understand the basic plan of salvation as well as most New Order Amish churches.

However, if you are asking for an overall opinion of the Amish and whether the preach the way of salvation; I would say that maybe 1/4 of them have this revelation of being saved by grace through faith. That would probably be a little on the high side as most of these communities that teach and believe this are quite small.

It seems in most cases, the more conservative they are, the less they teach the true path to God. The reason I believe to be is that the more they believe that works will get them there, the harder they try by being more conservative.

I would propose that their Amish lifestyle has very little to do with the works that Jesus and the disciples talked about. The works that Jesus did was the supernatural works described in Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I would also point anyone who thinks the Amish lifestyle somehow helps them be more spiritual to II Peter 1:3-4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

How much of ALL do people not understand? He says,"ALL things that pertain to life and godliness.

I'm not saying that you have to live in the lifestyle of the average American either but when you make a certain dress code or way of transportation or way of making a living a code to live by and anyone who is outside of that box is automaticly judged as worldly, then you have made that perticular lifestyle an idol.
What you need to do as a representative of the Amish is to represent the most typical answers to questions on salvation the way that the interviewer of the Muslim/ Jewish/Catholic/Amish cd did. Yes, you will always have those who like Kate's circle of churches who are not the average, who will protest at being included in the overall picture, but you are not implying that all Amish are not born again as we both know.

Tennessee

--refer to article 19, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

After reading your email and pondering a bit,It may be that the amish in Michigan do have salvation figured out.I do know there was a guy from the Geauga county amish that moved to michigan {not sure what part} and he is a preacher now and people from the geauga amish say he has a [frempta glauva] which could very well be they have been born again! I know if this Kate would have joined most of the churches where I grew up she would not say that,they are very much tradition based

Wisconsin

--refer to article 18, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Hello, I am John Yoder. I was born in Wilton, WI. In answer to your question, how many amish are saved, I would have to say 10% or less. I have been to some of the Michigan churches Katie spoke of, Evart and Marion, after I was saved, as well as read some of their writings and literature and I believe there are many more in those churches who are saved than the churches I grew up in. I have also been to places like Ashland, OH and Kenton OH and they were very similar to the ones I used to live in.

Indianna

--refer to article 17, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Again, I don't believe that it's up to me to judge what is in mans heart beyond fruit inspection. I do speak with many that would leave if the cost weren't so great. Facing the family with the news that you don't believe God wants you in the Amish church, and that Christ has given us freedom to live our lives according to the Spirit and not to the flesh is to hard for many to face. As one Amish man in PA said, " The ban is just a fence to keep us here, if that were taken away most would leave. I guess getting burned at the stake has taken on other forms.

I believe many do acknowledge that only Jesus can save them. At the same time it is required that as a member you must agree to the man made ordinances in order to take communion. I guess the real question is do they know Jesus. It's not what you know but Who you know that saves you.

I do believe that Kate will have to make the the decision on her own. However the question that is begging is how will joining the Amish help her fulfill the Great Commission. The charge to tell others about God's simple plan of salvation.

West Virgina

--refer to article 16, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I too, am troubled concerning sooooo many religious doctrines, practices & zeal displayed for God as expressed & confessed by litterly hunderds & hunderds of diverse groups of people. My heart aches deep down & I have continual sorrow because of our inability (indeed it is our human refusal & resistance ) to come together & reason with God's book, (as He has invited & begged) His living Word open, looking into it, giving all diligence, knowing that this Word & this Word only has the power to save our souls. There is no other power that even comes close to the power of the Gospel.

But men have corrupted to so great an extent, "the Gospel", that unless we first consult the counsel of God, we can be led to hold men & their doctrines above that which is written. Do we think that it is wrtten "in vain" that we are admonished & warned, to try the spirits, to prove all things, to guard against false teachers.

Man looks on the outside, God looks on heart. But God has giving man the ability & knowledge to know what kind of "fruit" is being produced. We cannot rec. figs from a grape vine, neither can we rec. salvation from another gospel, which is not another, just a perverted one.

The closer a counterfit gospel is to the Gospel of Christ, the harder it is to detect. If just one drop of poisen were put in a glass of pure water then immediately it would not be pure any more. We dare not pick & choose which commandments we want to keep, for if we keep them all but one, then are we guilty of all. You see there are consequenses, if we add to, or take away.

God in His great love where with He loved us has given us these admonitions & warnings for your & my good. They are indeed precious blessings, the which I am not able to count the price thereof!

I am human & I "still" fall short so many times of what God's expects from me. But this assurance I have of Christ, that if I walk in the Light as He is in the Light then do I have fellowship with Him & He cleanses me of all sin.

Joe, I know that I have not specificully addressed your question. But I deem it impossible to do so in one letter, let alone two. I would count it a high honor & priviledge to come together with "ANY PERSON OR GROUP" of people to engage in bible study, one person at a time, in order, ea. one given respect to speak. All I wish to do, is with reverence & fear, content earnestly for "THE FAITH" which was once for all, delivered. Knowing from Whom I have learned these Truths & the unspeakable price that was paid!

Ohio

--refer to article 15, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I think Kate is totally crazy, wow she has know clue. Tell her to go back and talk to God.

Ohio

--refer to article 14, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

This sounds so much like me!!! This Kate does!! I also joined from the outside and later went by the name of Katie!! After I did join, I was shocked the very Sunday that I joined!! It still took years for me to really realize enough to be able to leave. At that time, my husband and I left together.

But that was years ago. I do know there are some of them that are saved. As you know when you attend an Amish service, it does sound like they believe that Jesus is the way. But my biggest question is....how many of them really do have a born again testimony?? As we know, God does not have grand children only children....being brought into the family only thru the precious Blood of Jesus.

Many people tried to tell me I was making a big mistake before hand. Including some ex-Amish...but it just made me want to be Amish even more. As a young girl I even wrote some young that had left or was thinking about leaving and got them to change their minds. It was only the Lord Jesus that was able to open my blind eyes. We need to keep praying for this Kate, plus all the others. I am not saying that none of them are saved, I believe there are some....but from what I witnessed, I fear there are only a few.

Iowa

--refer to article 13, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I AM RESPONDING TO UR ARTICLE ON MAP, ABOUT THE AMISH BEING BORN AGAIN. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION, AND THAT I DO NOT INTEND TO OFFEND ANYONE, BUT TALKING DIRECTLY FROM MY EXPERIENCE OF BEING AMISH FOR 25YRS AN A MEMBER FOR 6+ YRS.

I BELIEVE THERE ARE A FEW THAT ARE TRUELY BORN AGAIN,AND THAT MOST OF THEM CLAIM TO BE AN SAY ALL THE RITE WORDS, AND SCRIPTURES,BUT AS LONG AS THEY KEEP PUTTING THIER MANMADE RULES IN FRONT OF THE SCRIPTURES WHEN IT COMES TO DEALING WITH A BROTHER, WHEN THEY THINK HE SIDE STEPPED THIER RULES, AN USING THE" BANN" FOR A MATERIAL THING THAN I DONT THINK THEY ARE REALLY BORN AGAIN.

I HAVE SEEN IT OVER AN OVER AGAIN, WHEN IT CAME RIGHT TO THE FINAL DECISION THAT THEY WOULD OVERRIDE THE BIBLE, AND DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM IN THERE OWN WAY OF RELIGION. SHARED WITH LOVE, AND THE BLESSING AND SPIRIT OF MY LORD AN SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

Ohio

--refer to article 12, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

I am from the Middlefield, Ohio area and rest assured there are more people that do not know about salvation then those that do. You are right that they do shun and excommunicate you if you do believe in salvation by grace. I am prime example of that.

I praise God that she found a church that preaches that, it is just hard for me to believe that they aren't feeding her what she wants to hear, however I did read where she said she heard salvation preached from the pastors.

Maybe they do preach that, would be interesting for someone to go to one of those churches she has visited and listen. not as a spy but to reassure those of us that have been praying for the amish to wake up and listen to Gods truth. I have been praying for 26 years and will never stop praying until all my family has heard about salvation by grace!!!

Florida

--refer to article 11, if leaving comment at bottom of page--

Hello, This is regarding salvation of Amish. I can only speak for myself. When I joined the Amish church back in 1973 I was not once explained the plan of salvation. It was not till 2 years later that I attended for the first time a nonamish church that the Holy Spirit revealed to me that there is salvation in Christ alone. i did not however ,ask questions of the Amish ministers like Kate says she did. but that would have been unheard of. You were to listen and not question.

I believe that the rules that the Amish bishops put on people are dangerous, because many cannot see the cross because the rules cast a shadow on it and therefore many think their salvation lies in obeying the rules.

I do think that there are Amish who are saved but why is it not talked about amoung them or to others?

I pray for my Amish family members, but it is not something I can talk to them about because it leads to arguments which is displeasing to God. Titus3 :9 So I let the light of Christ will shine through me and love them. For if we have not love it profits us nothing.

Missouri

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Kate said she isn't a member yet. I think she is in for a surprise. I think the amish are painting a pretty picture for her. I believe that they are telling her what she says they are, but she doesn't understand it fully what they really do believe. Like some we know who moved from an Amish community in KY because the church there insisted they can be saved and stay amish, but less then 2 years later they were excommunicated because of thier beliefs. And that church is much more tolerant then most are.

We will be praying that her eyes be opened someway, but then, maybe God has her there for some reason that isn't reveled yet.

New York

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We come from Old Order Mennonites, therefore cannot speak from the Amish viewpoint. But this question stirred up some strong emotions for me.

My first question would be - what is Kate's motive for wanting to join the Amish church?

I understand that being asked these questions, especially from an outsider, the ministry would have had all the "right" answers. From where we came from, that would likely be the case too. But the question to ask is why have an ordnung then that prohibits things which are not spoken against in the Bible? And why excommunicate people who do not follow the exact same ordnung even though they believe all the same basic things about salvation? Why the emphasis on ordnung and why reject those who choose not to follow the same?? It seems that even though their words may not reveal their belief in salvation in Jesus + works, their actions do.

Their answer to why have an ordnung may be that it "protects" them from temptations that are in the world. Does it really? Isn't it God who protects us? Following the ordnung may present some very real temptations too. The temptation to think you are better than someone else because you follow the ordnung more closely. The temptation to think that you as a church are better than other Christian churches because you adhere more closely to what is "right". And maybe most dangerous - the temptation to hide sins because of the shame involved in revealing them. Not to mention the deception of believing that you are right with God because you are following the ordnung to the letter. There is so much more that could be said...

I really wonder whether Kate let the leaders know that she still uses the internet when she goes to her English mother's home and what their response is on that?

I have no answer as to what percentage are truly saved or not. Only God is the judge and I know that he judges according to what a person knows not according to what he does not know. I also know that he is a merciful God beyond what we can imagine. So I am very slow to say that these people are not saved. It is just sad that they live in fear every day and do not know that they may have the assurance of salvation even in this life. This may be different in some Amish churches where the gospel is never preached. In the church we came from the gospel was preached at times but then there were so many fear filled messages mixed in that were confusing and dragged a person down.

My advice to Kate would be to do some serious counselling with an "English" Christian counselor to explore her motives for wanting to join and any underlying issues that may be contributing to those motives.

Illinois

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Reading about Kate was quite interesting,just had to think, she's not yet a member and might find things disappointing after she is.your question about thinking Amish are saved, to me & our experiences I'd say there is a very few if any who are saved or understand salvation in any way. And if they do preach about salvation its in a history story telling fashion with no heart reality.' And the preaching as I'd always heard is all about being good enough and then maybe having a chance to get into heaven. Not by grace through faith. To me its unthinkable to think there's any Amish out there that preach salvation free and clear, again, not saying there aren't. Hope this was helpful.

Ohio

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I am also an x Amish.I find that most even so called Christians can even fall in the category of just being christian professors. However I just wonder what Katie will have to say after she gets hurt and sees the other side. And also, the other danger is that, how easy is it to do something that you just follow guidelines and become faithless. I see a tremendous danger, because I know how Amish think in-spite of what they say. And what I mean by this is when you are Amish that is the only way they think is Amish. Somehow they are able to say not how they really feel for the sake of fear.

The Amish want to be good people and are recognized as that for the most part, but if you have never been one, well, let me retrace here a little. Do I know exactly how Muslims think. Absolutely not, Why? never been one, I don't think that a group of people can be controlled by man made rules that wont become there argument.Christ is my perfect sacrifice, and there is nothing for me to add.

I love him because he first loved me. How than can people that don't know God show God to other people, and be able to love like God????

Ohio

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How many Amish are saved? I don't know and have not given it much thought as to how many. I do believe that there are more who understand salvation than when I was with the Amish. However, there are some things that leaped at me from Kate's letter. She says that they (the Amish preachers) used the same terms than non-denominational churches. I absolutely believe that, but the "terms" they use doesn't mean that what they really believe even though they may say it a thousand times. There's a huge difference in being able to "talk the talk" and "walking the walk."

I know for a fact that here in our area ministers have to be a little cautious with what they say about salvation or maybe I should say that's the way it used to be. It is possible that it might have changed a little by now.

I just talked with my former bishop a while ago and he definitely knows the "lingo" so to speak and we did have a pleasant conversation, but when he told me that the Bann was more for his people than for me - well there's something wrong with that statement and regardless of what he SAYS that's not what he believes. He doesn't think being Amish will get him to heaven and yet later he indicated what I did is dangerous and disobedient. I asked him if he thinks I'm a Christian. "Yes," was his reply.I also asked him if the Bann was then to keep his members in his church and he said , "Yes." This too is unbiblical. I asked him what scripture he had to support keeping a Christian under the Bann and he had no answer because there is no such thing. Does he believe in salvation by grace? He believes that Jesus is the only way to heaven up to a certain point.

It is impossible to believe in salvation by grace alone and enforce man-made rules that have no scripture to support it. The motive for using the Bann to keep people in his church is fear, which is the WRONG motive. We are not given a spirit of fear.... It also impossible to passionately pursue God and passionately pursue being Amish at the same time.

Salvation is Jesus Christ plus NOTHING and I haven't found a lot of Amish who believe that although here in our area there are some. I have watched the Amish for years and I have great respect for them in a lot of ways, but what they say they believe and the way they live out are two different things. Actions speak louder than words.

The other question I have is why is it OK to the Amish for Kate to leave her church and join the Amish if it's not right to leave the Amish and join another church??? Way too many loop holes... Nonetheless, I wish Kate God's blessings and a continual growth in her walk with her Savior.

Florida

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Joe, I used to think you can not be Amish and be saved. Or if you get saved as Amish you will leave. But after being in Sarasota Florida for a while I changed my mind. Many more Amish people are saved than I thought possible. On the opposite end, many more Amish people are not saved that think they are saved.

But what opened my eyes down here is that the Amish that live down here are Amish by choice and if someone decides to leave the Amish church there is no pressure to stay or condemnation, except for one old maid and one widow lady. And many of the Amish that spend the winter months own here are also more again Amish and have chosen to remain Amish.

The Amish people as a whole leave their religion at home when the come down here and they really are who they are. They are more free to eat, drink and be merry and go partying and some do. But others fine a relationship with the living God.

The groups in Michigan that were named do have more light and preach more truth than other Amish communities up north. They also have a larger percentage that leave after being born again.

You can use this whichever way you want to.

My parents were both saved Amish in their old age and died as such. But I could not be saved while Amish because I was depending on my Amishness instead of Christ to save me. I had to leave all religion before God saved me.

Wisconsin

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The story about "Kate", I find that very difficult to believe, her testimony on behalf of these Amish communities. I do not know much about these communities. The first question I guess I would have for these congregations is "Do they have an 'ordnung's brief"?

Me personally, after now being set free 20 yrs ago, I have yet to meet an Amish, that has a "Born again, Faith alone, Grace alone, Christ alone" testimony, and "STAY's Amish for any length of time. A few may for a period of time hoping to influence family etc, but never for any length of time.

Your question, "how many" ? to me personally, and I'm looking at the WI. MN. MO. Amish communities I am most familiar with, like I said before, I would yet have to meet one. Which is sad and breaks my heart, my immediate family is all included in that.

Michigan

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I read your MAP update this morning and I would be curious to know what town here in Michigan she is at. I found it amazing that she made such claims. I am not aware of any Amish that hold to salvation by faith here in Mich and I have talked to several. Roy Yoder and Ben Gerard were saved out of the group in Ovid and the group they came out of were just like the ones you and I would be familiar with. I for one do not buy her story.

Indiana

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This is a subject close to mine and my husband Corneal's hearts. When we left the Amish 26 years ago we felt sure there was not much salvation in the Amish church, probably because we felt such a strong leading that we were called to leave for a closer walk with God. However as we grew in wisdom & grace in God and His Word, we have also adjusted to more and deeper things in our walk with God. The salvation that our Father planned and paid for through His son Jesus means it's paid for whether we, the people of earth, believe it or not. We now believe God has a plan for all mankind, and will not throw any of us away, but has a perfect plan put in place and that His Word and His plan will go into effect.

When we were born on this earth we had no choice in the matter about being born into a sinful, human, carnal nature. Our Father put His Spirit into every human born, we couldn't breathe if we didn't have his Spirit Life in us. However as children we don't understand what's inside of us...the Kingdom of God...unless we grow in Him and believe Him and start operating in that belief...and as it becomes effective in our life we become what we believe...to the point of being overcomers in all points of life. This great salvation is given to all mankind.

I believe the Word teaches me not to be judgemental of where others are in their walk with God, and no one is above others in God's sight and therefore not in mine. Since I believe of who God really is He has become a beautiful God ...loving of nature instead of the condemning one I'd been taught. The law of sowing and reaping is still in effect....as we sow so shall we reap...here on this earth...but that does not take God's salvation away...bad sowing takes away what we become as we live on this earth..versus good sowing! I know this is not a popular teaching, but we are bible studyers...and love the Word.

I have not taken the time to add the scriptures, simply because I wanted to write this quickly, but every bit is backed up by the Word. We keep telling ourselves we didn't just leave the Amish to be stuck in another place where we can't move on to greater things of God...and our every intention is to keep opening up to the Spirit of God so He can speak to us and direct our way even if it's not popular. Now back to the original question about where the Amish are in their salvation....I know now I do not need to judge them....but I believe God has given me greater light ( because I have reached out and been open for more) than when I was Amish because there was no bible study allowed, and no fellowship with other Christians. As individual Amish reach out to their God and believe they will also reap the results of what they sow, but salvation is for ALL.

Ohio

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Just a thought (or maybe a question!) regarding Katie: I wonder how her experience with the Amish might change were she to marry an Amish man? Not ever being Amish, I have no way to know for myself, but I do wonder if some of the reason she is having a better experience than most is because she is single? Is there more pressure to conform put on an English/converted Amish person once marriage and children are in the picture?

-- Joe Keim

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