[Joe Keim]

David Ray, on 25 November 2009 - 11:29 PM, said:

How can we be separated when we look just like the people of the world? Is that all we need," Believe on the Lord Jesus, then we can do as we please?

David

David, by how you stated your first question, it would appear as if you think Christians should somehow have a different or stand outish appearance among the people of this world. In a sense you are right, but to say that church people can only wear a certain type of material, color, or design is unscriptural. I do not think we can read anywhere that Jesus, His disciples, or Apostle Paul stood out in any way. However, we do read that a certain sect of people (in the Bible) stood out because of the kind of clothing they wore.

Mark 12:38
And He said unto them in His doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing...

Jesus very simply said to beware of dressing to attract attention. The religionists did it to appear righteous. Others do it to appeal in a sexual way. And let me say, David, the one is just as wrong as the other.

Secondly, if you are making reference to 1 Tim 2:9 where it says "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel", then I would have to ask you a simple and honest question too; one that I have asked myself many times. Who sets the standard for modesty? Is it the jungle women? The Amish women? The New Testament women? Could it be that there really is no set standard for modest apparel? If there is a God given standard for the New Testament Church, then I am not aware of its location.

The truth about the whole outward appearance all boils down to this fact: God is more concerned about the heart then He is about the outward appearance. This is not only spelled out in Old Testament but also in the New Testament.

1 Samuel 16:7
"...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"

Matthew 23:27-28
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

With that said, David, there is yet one more thing to keep in mind before passing judgment on men and women who are truly Born Again. It is quite possible that they are indeed Born Again but are either young and/or immature in their faith or they just do not know any better because of how they were raised. In either cases, we don't under any circumstances have the right to pass judgment, because we cannot see the heart as God can.

Romans 14:10-13
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Joe Keim

[Simon Peter]

David Ray, on 25 November 2009 - 10:29 PM, said:

How can we be separated when we look just like the people of the world? Is that all we need," Believe on the Lord Jesus, then we can do as we please?

Your questions are the basis that have been used to cause lots of divisions and church splits.

One of the most quoted scriptures in an Amish sermon is Romans 12:1-2. What I'd like to look at is verse 2.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The renewed mind is the only mind that can prove(discern.. be able to tell) what is that
good will of God, acceptable will of God, and the perfect will of God.

The only way this is possible is by a 'transformation'(new birth). This is brought about by no longer conforming to this world or 'man-made laws & governments'... but to Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit and under His influence.

You may think I have left the subject...I didn't... please stay with me.

Lets see an example of what Jesus calls the 'world'.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.Who hated Jesus? The poor sinner.... or the self-righteous.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. When you are called out of the 'world'(church means 'called out ones')... the world will hate(excommunicate) you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.Again, who persecuted Jesus? The religious people... not the humble sinner in need.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.....
Joh 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Who is 'They'? He is still referring to 'the world'.
Joh 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Here's the point I want to make...

The Pharisees(means separated ones) were very holy people. Well respected and honored in their culture.

They took great measures in making laws to make them more holy by separating themselves from sinners. Self-righteousness always causes blindness of heart. The "Truth" stood in their presence and they couldn't see Him... actually they hated Him.

They found various confirmations that He was not holy....
..born outside of marriage (they thought He was born in fornication)
..had uneducated disciples ( one was even a tax-collector)
..in contact with sinners (some of these sinners had their life 'way out of order.)
..came in contact with the blind, lepers, and even Samaritans.
..didn't obey their standards. (He actually told a man to 'take up his bed and go home on the Sabbath. No one carries anything on the Sabbath.)
Finally when He stood before Pilate, it became clear to them that He was phoney.

According to the above statements they saw Him as a common man. They were the holy ones.

Now lets look at Jesus, the High Priest...

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Here we see that He WAS searated from sinners. How? He was connected to the Father. Now we can be separated from the 'world' by being connected to the Father "through" Jesus Christ, not by avoiding "things". Some are even things of necessity... cars, vans, electricity, tractors, cell phones, etc. etc.

Avoiding these things cannot separate you from the world. I remember the first landline phone on an Amish property. The phone was actually over 1/4 mi. down the road from his house. People declared that he is decieved and going to hell. Look at the phones today. They are all over the Amish communities. Have the phones been cleansed somehow?

The phone is neutral (neither holy nor evil) just like a hammer. The condition of the heart of the user is what makes the difference. You can do a lot of damage with a hammer if your heart is evil. Should we just remove the hammer? NO Let's be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

We must become 'Separated unto God',

Simon Peter

[Jonathan Helmuth]

I heartily agree with you Joe. The Bible talks very little about outword adorning but talks much about the condition of our hearts. I once heard a preacher say, " What Jesus talked much about, I want to talk much about, what Jesus talked little about I want to talk little about." This has set me on a journey to find out what really is the heart of the Gospel message. Lets get our focus on the things that really matter to God. Jesus said," If our eye (focus) be single our whole body shall be full of light." I want to be a light to the world by the love and compassion I have for them and by letting his joy to radiate from my face. " By their fruits ye shall know them, not their clothes.
Jonathan Helmuth

[Henry Byler]

Quote

PDaveAngel said: The Amish, as a group, can take some people who are full of anger and pain and stress and can transform them. Why be separate when you can use your lifestyle to start healing people? I love healing, Raphael heals through me and he can heal through you as well, if you let him, if you ask him. Yes, not everybody, but you do speak out to some people, who know you exist and think about you. And you can heal them and bring love and joy and understanding to their world.

I am not sure where you are coming from. This is a Christian forum here and as such we adhere to Christian doctrines and principals. It is our belief that healing comes from God, the God of Abraham of the bible, we ask for healing only in the name of Jesus of Nazereth and we believe that the work of healing is done by the work of God the Holy Spirit. Their is no other name under heaven that we can call on for salvation or for healing.

Again I say, I do not know what your theology is or what you are trying to teach here, but, I give you the benefit of explaining yourself in a more clear way. However, for the sake of anyone coming here and reading your post, I felt I needed to make plain what we believe here.

James 5:
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

This is just one of many instances that we are told in the bible to pray in the name of the Lord. Our Lord is Jesus Christ, and Him crucified shedding His blood for the sins of the world. You can claim that for yourself if you believe on Him. Jesus is looking to save any that come to Him, He will never turn anyone with a contrite heart away.

[Simon Peter]

Thank you so much, Henry, for clarifying our focus for this forum... It's all about Jesus Christ.

It seems there are more and more 'other' names being exalted or 'lifted up' as important names for salvation or healing.
Let's take a look into this 'separation from the world' issue. Maybe you can help me...

Mat 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

If Jesus was teaching people in a culture that was 'out of order', and yet He taught in all their cities and in their synagogues.... so how was He separated? This is not our idea of separation, is it?

We were taught that separation from the world meant to isolate yourself from 'worldly' people... not have any fellowship with people that don't see it as we do. This is precisely what the Pharisees did and taught. They would go to great lengths to make sure they were separated from the common people of their own culture. As we look into the gospel we will discover that Jesus interacted with sinners, outcasts, publicans, and selected men of no education & reputation to be His disciples.


So my question is ... "How was Jesus separate... and how are we to be separate"?

Simon Peter

[Valerie]

Good question Simon Peter. Growing up in the fast paced, beach areas of southern Calif., and becoming a Christian there, I confess I was ignorant until about the time the movie Witness came out, that there were people in our country living like the Amish. So I'd already been a Christian over a decade. It never occured to me it would mean community living and physically separating from everyone and everythng in the world around me. So-what did it mean-coming out and being separate? It meant following the Word and praying the Lord to guide me in that area, giving me help making those determinations-(frequently fell short, you do have to choose sides)
it meant choices-reading the Word,or Christian books, music that turned my mnind to the Lord, what kind of entertainment I'd allow myself to view, no more partying,(although tried to witness at them-but to intoxicated people, futile). Spending free time finding an area to serve the Lord. It meant FELLOWSHIP with believers-we need that very much, choosing friends that were like minded in the Lord, YET, mixing with the broken, hurting, empty, money minded, partiers, addicted, etc. -to be able to LISTEN to them, and hopefully, be used of the Lord to bring Him, into their lives and situations/circumstances.

Moving to OH, I have gleaned from the Amish/Mennonite culture which gave me new respect for more modest apparel, which I didn't see much of in So. Calif, so didn't really think much about that at the time, but I admired, and was convicted when exposed to their following scriptures I had not witnessed, in the way of fashion/dress/money spent on "appearance". So, perhaps another way of coming out and being separate was being an example of how I now choose to spend money, looking for ways to bless, not possess. Also, takng a stand for what scriptures say when it's time to vote,(excuse me Anabaptists) regarding laws-(abortion, same sex marriage). AND a big one-Godly values you try to instill in your children. These are a few more ways, I see coming out and being separate, or, being in the world but not of the world-every day, we're faced with those choices, in the neighborhood, work place, social invitations, etc. the Lord helps us, be salt & light IN the midst of them. That is how I saw Jesus do it-He made time to be around those that were hungry for what He offered with the words of life-but seemed to want to separate Himself more from the merciless and self righteous-He also needed to separate Himself to spend alone time, to commune with His Father, to go "up to the mountain" and we can follow that example too. That is what I always thought coming out and being separate meant. I'm sure others have more examples-

[Simon Peter]

I wonder if there is something about separation that we are still missing. Our Amish culture has taught us that separation means; to stay away from, to make a division, and to 'look' different. We can find scripture to confirm that thought. Hebrews 7:26 shows us that Jesus was separated from sinners... yet the Pharisees condemned Him for eating with sinners. They didn't think He was separated from sinners and they used that as a confirmation that He wasn't from heaven.

The last commandment Jesus gave His disciples was to"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you....

Now how would His disciples separate themselves from the world, and still do as Jesus commanded?

The demon possessed man in Mark 5 was cleansed and then he wanted to follow Jesus. Notice in v.18 Jesus did not allow him to follow Him. Instead, Jesus told him to'Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee. (Note: Jesus wanted him to go share his testimony rather than seclude himself or separate himself from other people.)

Because of this man sharing his testimony as Jesus instructed him... the people were ready to receive Him when He returned in v.21. Can you imagine these being the same people that asked Him to leave in v.17.

Imagine the man above going home and separating himself from others and not sharing his testimony.

My question is," What is it that I must have in order to be separated unto God so I can boldly share my testimony(what God did for me) without being influenced by the evil around me?

Simon Peter

[Henry Byler]

Seperation I think is something other than dress code, or looking different from other people. I kow there are some who would not agree with this, but that is ok, I still believe it, until someone can convince me otherwise, with sound reasoning that lines up with scripture. There are many people who have seperated themselves into isolated communities, with very strict rules & regulations, to the point where I just can't possibly see how it lines up with the bible. Yea, it will line up with one verse, but then here is another verse where it does not. But, is that not what most of our lives are, we line ourselves up in one area and then find ourselves off in another, constantly re-aligning oursleves.

The Lord is good in His Mercy to us, He allows re-aligning, if we do it in obedience to Him.

What if I put it this way, maybe someone will understand this, we are more than just what you see walking around. Jesus says to Nicodemus, you must be born again, now we know that we can't physically be born again, it is our spirit/soul that is now born and made alive. In the same sort of way, that is the part of us that is to be seperated from the world, our born again, newly come to life spirit must not buy into the world system. I think it has nothing to do with how we look, but everything with who we are in Christ. We don't put our hope in any government, any financial system, all this coruption, we seperate ourselves from having any hope that the world can save us. We look to God only for our great hope and salvation.

Of course if/when we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, counsel us, we will not feel comfortable with all the debauchery/sin that the world offers. Does not mean we don't sin or are not sinners, but we will feel convicted when we do. If a Christain knowingly sins and does not feel guilt, I would worry. This may also be part of the seperation from the world.

Maybe someone will say I am all wrong. I probably did not communicate it exactly how I feel it. That is ok, I am not an expert nor do I have any special knowledge, just feel strongly that the seperation is not as much a physical seperation as it is a spiritual one.