[Eli Stutzman]

Simon Peter said:

Hey seriously, this quote 'The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung' gets my attention. I think this is a symptom of 'The Lukewarm Church'. and it is found in all denominations and non-denominational churches. Its the unspoken ' pledge of allegience' to whatever the ministers say. We notice this immediately in the Amish churches, but it is also in the non-Amish churches.. it's just more subtle. I think it is a lack of personal conviction and a personal walk with the Lord.

These are truths that can be applied in some degree to all denominations. I once did a survey in a Baptist church and was surprised at how many people have very little idea of how OT law applies today. Many people thought we need a mixture of grace and works to be saved. I hope most people will see this forum not so much as 'bashing Amish', but a mirror to check our own spiritual health.

Simon Peter said:

What was a typical day of work on the farm... at school... an evening at home with the family?

We lived in Holmes county OH on a 100 acre farm until I was 18. Dat was more of a mathematical/mechanical minded person than a farmer interested in tilling the soil and tending animals. We had animals of the usual variety found on Amish farms. Except for chickens. Dat liked chickens more than other types of farm animals. One of my chores was to keep the 500 or so chickens fed and watered. This was morning and evening. We weren't the earliest risers. I guess some of us have to be a bit tardy to for the early risers to be able to compare themselves favorably?

The typical day began with feeding the horses and cows. I was too poor at milking, so I was relegated to other chores. All the children able to do so helped with chores. This took about an hour and then we all went for breakfast. After breakfast the chickens needed attention as did the horses which had to be turned loose for a drink of water. Then the harnesses had to be put on the horses, if field work was in season. Usually school was out for the summer from April to September. If school was in season, washing up and changing into good clothes was the first thing after breakfast. Tending to the chickens was the first thing after school as well. Then the evening chores. Get hay and straw down. Climb that silo and get enough down to feed all the cows. The exercise I got from climbing that silo still keeps me spry. (I think). We were always too busy to get in trouble. The work ethic was practiced all day every day. Though we could have benefited from more education, still there is much to appreciate.

[Henry Byler]

I was on a farm where we milked; in full season 30 - 33 cows. By the time I was 12, I was milking 5 cows every morning and night. You guys brought back a lot of memories, getting ready for school and then for me, a 1 1/2 mile walk to school and back home. And getting scolded if I took to long to get home, because there was work to be done.

I made up my mind at an early age that I was not going to be a farmer and it is still with me today. Don't want any part of farming, other than a garden.

About the hats, in my day, where I grew up. it was cool to see how far you could roll the brim up, to make it look like a cowboy hat. Used to get in trouble for that. And, I remember having bought a radio and having it hidden in my buggy. My dad found it and smashed it.

Oh, the days of being an Amish teenager, for me it was not pretty. But, when I look back, I wish I had more wisdom.

[Valerie]

Moses, on 12 March 2010 - 11:51 PM, said:

I'm actually in the "Lodi settlement". I didn't know what the Troyer church was like. You say they come from the Swartz?

Sorry to jump in here Moses, but you are in the Lodi settlement in Medina County? If so, then you are from the very Swartzentrubers I've been discussing on the board? How long ago did you leave? Where do you find fellowship now, still in the area? Since you know all these Amish (I'm in Medina), Lodi, Homerville, West Salem, I was told by Abraham Hershberger, that one group split up into 3 different groups due to disagreements. The Homerville Produce Auction is where I was hoping to somehow share there or get to maybe know some of the Swartz-but I can tell it will not be easy-there are tracts specifically written for Swartzentruber Amish-do you think there'd be any value in trying to perhaps, leave them in buggies while auction is going on? This is the downtrodden looking group-and the young ladies, will be hard to speak with, they huddle in small groups, arms crossed, and I just thought how in the world, to ever get conversation going with them? Much prayer to be sure.
I just didn't realize you were so close-I realized I asked you a lot of questions. You've been quite interviewed this post!
Thank you though, seems to bring kindred spirits together for you all. Seems beneficial.

[Simon Peter]

Henry Byler said:

I was on a farm where we milked; in full season 30 - 33 cows. By the time I was 12, I was milking 5 cows every morning and night. You guys brought back a lot of memories, getting ready for school and then for me, a 1 1/2 mile walk to school and back home. And getting scolded if I took to long to get home, because there was work to be done.

I went to 'public school' my first 4 years. I remember my first year in an Amish school. I was in the 5th grade. It was down-right scary. The silence was almost haunting. It was so deathly quiet. One day as I was doing my lessons.... BOOM!! the teacher darted out of her chair, went straight for the closet, two seconds later came out with a paddle(a 'billy club'), went over to a boys desk, ordered him to stand up and 'bend over'. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Immediately after that the boy sat down and the teacher went to another boy's desk... same way. She then went to the 3rd boys desk and by this time I thought I might be on 'death row' as well and didn't know it. She ordered him to stand up and 'bend over'.. he said NO!!... she pulled him out of his seat with a good grip on his shirt and suspenders. His pants were pulled up in an unethical way(because of her grip). She gave him one Wham!! He said OUCH!! and came around swinging. OOOOHHHH!! I was really scared by then. I was literally quaking. There was no way I could write anything on paper.. because of my trembling. Never in my life have I seen a sight like this. For all I knew she was going to kill him. I looked aroung and everyone else had paused to observe to see what the outcome would be. He took several punches at her... that in itself should have been 'rated R'. All of this because the teacher saw a boy read a comic on a 'bubblegum' wrapper... wad it up and 'shoot it to another boy... he reads the comic... and shoots it to another boy.... the teacher was observing this until she exploded. I'll never in my life forget that day.... and that was before there were DVD's. (It is also the same school where I taught many years later.)

Henry Byler said:

About the hats, in my day, where I grew up. it was cool to see how far you could roll the brim up, to make it look like a cowboy hat.
Used to get in trouble for that. And, I remember having bought a radio and having it hidden in my buggy. My dad found it and smashed it.

Oh, how I remember how important it was to roll up the sides of the hat. Oh, yeah!! We were sooo cool. Also I started smoking at the age of 13. I had the smokers habit at the age of 14. (I never dreamed that I'd never be able to break that habit for over 25 years.) The Lord had to do it for me. I was unable to.

Henry Byler said:

Oh, the days of being an Amish teenager, for me it was not pretty. But, when I look back, I wish I had more wisdom.

Amen, Henry. Maybe we'd better not go there. After all... it's under the blood... let's leave it there.

I had to laugh about the 'cowboy hats' that we made out of regular hats. I'd literally 'gag' if I were to see a video of myself in my teens. I'm glad we didn't have to stay teenagers.

Simon Peter

[Eli Stutzman]

Moses, on 12 March 2010 - 11:51 PM, said:

I'm actually in the "Lodi settlement". I didn't know what the Troyer church was like. You say they come from the Swartz?

The Swartzentruber church was originally the Sam Yoder church. Sam Yoder broke away from the only type of Amish that existed in Holmes/Wayne counties prior to 1917. The new church was named after him. A hostile split developed in 1932 that formed the Troyer church, so named for bishop Eli Troyer. Part of the dispute was the introduction of the wider hat brim for men. In many ways we were and still are identical. The other side of the split was led by two bishops surnamed Swartzentruber, each leading their respective districts.
I was born in 1938. In those days all Swartzentruber people lived in Holmes/Wayne area, as did the Troyers. The rivalry/animosity was still quite apparent as I recall. Anyone familiar with procedure when there is disagreement knows that give and take is very, very limited when trying to settle. I used the word "negotiate" when discussing with an Amish friend how a dispute might be settled. He said "Negotiate? That would indicate they might be wrong!" So when I hear people say, for example, negotiate an end to a permit dispute, I think to myself, "this will be interesting." Some might call it intransigence. (Nice word for bullheaded)

[Henry Byler]

Eli Stutzman said

Quote

Anyone familiar with procedure when there is disagreement knows that give and take is very, very limited when trying to settle. I used the word "negotiate" when discussing with an Amish friend how a dispute might be settled. He said "Negotiate? That would indicate they might be wrong!" So when I hear people say, for example, negotiate an end to a permit dispute, I think to myself, "this will be interesting." Some might call it intransigence. (Nice word for bullheaded)

This is what I remember about the Amish also, not much give and take. Usually none. Just a line in the sand if you will.

The part we have to look out for as former Amish individuals, that stubborness can easily come with us when we leave the Amish and it will rear its ugly head in many other areas besides "religion". Or, was it just me. I had some of my friends tell me I was the most stubborn person they knew. Once I felt I knew something, I would stand on it, way to much. Sometimes that is good, when you are standing up for biblical principals. But, when we stand to hard for opinions, our own, or someone else's that we might agree with, then we are set up for a fall. I have been there, and by the GRACE of God, I have learned that sometimes I am just plain wrong, or at the very least, not to push my opinions onto someone else. Which is exactly what we were taught growing up Amish.

I think the real big one is; We do not always have to be right and we do not always have to, or should we take an argument or disagreement to its bitter conclusion. Many times it is wise to have discernment to realize that we may not agree here and to just drop the "thing"

Hope I got what my thoughts were, across properly.

[Valerie]

Moses, that is so great that you are writing the booklet-perhaps I should wait for that if it is more suitable-the auction doesn't start up again til sometime in April-and starts slow, of course, no produce yet-not sure what they sell in April.
How did you go about finding a church, and what led you to the one in Dalton area? I wonder when ex Amish leave, how hard it must be to find a fellowship they feel comfortable in-

One more question-What is the whole hat brim thing about? I have never understood that seemingly hugely divisive, issue-
I know the english used to wear hats, back when, so wondering if it had to do with distinguishing Amish brims from English brims or What? I'm sure many are puzzled at what this is about. Same with crossed suspenders, straight suspenders. Oh MY!
Thank you once again Moses.

[Jonathan Helmuth]

The heart and soul of what keeps the Amish together is what I believe goes all the way back to the very reason Jacob Ammon split off of the rest of the Annabaptists. The main reason Jacob Ammon split off was because he thaught the others were way too lenient with people who fell into sin and those who had some different spiritual views. Dress was also an issue, though not as big of an issue. Most of the original annabaptists came from the poorer class of people but by the time of Jacob Ammon came on the scene, aprox.160 yrs. later, a number of wealthier people had become converts. Some of their clothes and lifestyles were not what Jacob thaught they should be so he started excommunicating people who did not dress according to his standards. He also thaught people should be treated more harshly if they fell into sin. He thaught they should shun people more harshly once they got excommunicxated. He then started excommunicating all those that did not agree with him on these matters. We still see the affects of this upon all his followers. It is still this stronghold of fear, especially of being put in the ban, that holds the Amish together today. Just imagine with me if the threat of the ban was taken away. I believe the whole thing would crumble in a matter of a few years. So in reality fear is what primarily holds them together. Fear is a powerful motivating emotion but not nearly as powerful as love. Many people also are afraid of all the extreme emotional rejection from their families and friends they will have to face if they dare to think or believe anything different than what they have been taught, and are not willing to pay the price because of it.
For many, the only love they have experienced is the kind that you receive from family and friends. Therefore one of the most powerful tools in evangelizing these people is to love them with the love of God and letting them know that ALL their sins were forgiven on the cross. That the shed blood of Jesus was truly enough and that there is nothing they can do to please God through their own works.
The whole thing with a focus on the clothing or outward appearence is also still a stronghold, even for many who leave. This goes all the way back to the man whos name they carry. Later in life he tried to repent from being so rash and causing a split and actually excommunicated himself. Which goes to prove he still did not have a proper understanding of the ban. He used it upon repentant sinners and it is still practiced today.
I believe the very foundation of the Amish was corrupt therefore the people who have participated in any of the above mentioned practices must repent and ask for God's forgiveness and return to the ways of God. He will cleanse us of all wrong concepts and practices if we are willing to confess.
Another stronghold in many of our Amish people's life is the vows they have made. Wrong vows bring you into bondage. It is wrong to vow to stay with a particular denomination. Jesus said, "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever loose on earth must be loosed in heaven." These are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. That means whatever we come into agreement with can bind us. But also we have the authority to become free from wrong covenents we have made. ( Whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.) This sin must be repented of and we must turn to the Lord with our undivided allegence. "Our God is a jelouse God" He does not share his bride with anyone, anything or any institution.
I hope this helps someone to become free from the slavery of fear and bondage.
PS. The Kingdom of God is not in meats or in drink (outward things) but in rightiousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (inward things)
Love all your insights,
Pastor Jonathan Helmuth

[Simon Peter]

Jonathan Helmuth, on 15 March 2010 - 09:40 PM, said:

The heart and soul of what keeps the Amish together is what I believe goes all the way back to the very reason Jacob Ammon split off of the rest of the Annabaptists. The main reason Jacob Ammon split off was because he thaught the others were way too lenient with people who fell into sin and those who had some different spiritual views. Dress was also an issue, though not as big of an issue. Most of the original annabaptists came from the poorer class of people but by the time of Jacob Ammon came on the scene, aprox.160 yrs. later, a number of wealthier people had become converts. Some of their clothes and lifestyles were not what Jacob thaught they should be so he started excommunicating people who did not dress according to his standards. He also thaught people should be treated more harshly if they fell into sin. He thaught they should shun people more harshly once they got excommunicxated. He then started excommunicating all those that did not agree with him on these matters. We still see the affects of this upon all his followers. It is still this stronghold of fear, especially of being put in the ban, that holds the Amish together today. Just imagine with me if the threat of the ban was taken away. I believe the whole thing would crumble in a matter of a few years. So in reality fear is what primarily holds them together. Fear is a powerful motivating emotion but not nearly as powerful as love. Many people also are afraid of all the extreme emotional rejection from their families and friends they will have to face if they dare to think or believe anything different than what they have been taught, and are not willing to pay the price because of it.
For many, the only love they have experienced is the kind that you receive from family and friends. Therefore one of the most powerful tools in evangelizing these people is to love them with the love of God and letting them know that ALL their sins were forgiven on the cross. That the shed blood of Jesus was truly enough and that there is nothing they can do to please God through their own works.
The whole thing with a focus on the clothing or outward appearence is also still a stronghold, even for many who leave. This goes all the way back to the man whos name they carry. Later in life he tried to repent from being so rash and causing a split and actually excommunicated himself. Which goes to prove he still did not have a proper understanding of the ban. He used it upon repentant sinners and it is still practiced today.
I believe the very foundation of the Amish was corrupt therefore the people who have participated in any of the above mentioned practices must repent and ask for God's forgiveness and return to the ways of God. He will cleanse us of all wrong concepts and practices if we are willing to confess.
Another stronghold in many of our Amish people's life is the vows they have made. Wrong vows bring you into bondage. It is wrong to vow to stay with a particular denomination. Jesus said, "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever loose on earth must be loosed in heaven." These are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. That means whatever we come into agreement with can bind us. But also we have the authority to become free from wrong covenents we have made. ( Whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.) This sin must be repented of and we must turn to the Lord with our undivided allegence. "Our God is a jelouse God" He does not share his bride with anyone, anything or any institution.
I hope this helps someone to become free from the slavery of fear and bondage.
PS. The Kingdom of God is not in meats or in drink (outward things) but in rightiousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (inward things)
Love all your insights,
Pastor Jonathan Helmuth

Very accurate and well written!!

Thanks Jonathan, both, you and I have a common burden on our heart.

Simon Peter

[Eli Stutzman]

Hi Jonathan. Thanks for your insights. I had for years wondered if our forefathers actually had a grip on salvation by faith. It appears more and more that a genuine move of holiness swept through our ancestors in early Anabaptist history since there were so many converts in a very short time. Yet by the time of Jakob Amman it was only a memory. For the first time in history people were thrown out of the church for wearing the the wrong type or style of clothing. Thus began the practice of dealing harshly with anyone who disagreed with Amman's theory of what was an expression of pride and what was not. They of course refused to come under the guiding hand of the Mennonites. The autonomy resulted in what today is many varieties of Amish and still we don't have enough. The future will have many more splits with each sect viewing the other with distrust. The more conservative they are, the more they will split. This is also true of English churches.

Jonathan said:

PS. The Kingdom of God is not in meats or in drink (outward things) but in rightiousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (inward things)

It is SO obvious. Why didn't I understand this sooner?

[Moses]

Jonathan Helmuth, on 15 March 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

The heart and soul of what keeps the Amish together is what I believe goes all the way back to the very reason Jacob Ammon split off of the rest of the Annabaptists. The main reason Jacob Ammon split off was because he thaught the others were way too lenient with people who fell into sin and those who had some different spiritual views. Dress was also an issue, though not as big of an issue. Most of the original annabaptists came from the poorer class of people but by the time of Jacob Ammon came on the scene, aprox.160 yrs. later, a number of wealthier people had become converts. Some of their clothes and lifestyles were not what Jacob thaught they should be so he started excommunicating people who did not dress according to his standards. He also thaught people should be treated more harshly if they fell into sin. He thaught they should shun people more harshly once they got excommunicxated. He then started excommunicating all those that did not agree with him on these matters. We still see the affects of this upon all his followers. It is still this stronghold of fear, especially of being put in the ban, that holds the Amish together today. Just imagine with me if the threat of the ban was taken away. I believe the whole thing would crumble in a matter of a few years. So in reality fear is what primarily holds them together. Fear is a powerful motivating emotion but not nearly as powerful as love. Many people also are afraid of all the extreme emotional rejection from their families and friends they will have to face if they dare to think or believe anything different than what they have been taught, and are not willing to pay the price because of it.
For many, the only love they have experienced is the kind that you receive from family and friends. Therefore one of the most powerful tools in evangelizing these people is to love them with the love of God and letting them know that ALL their sins were forgiven on the cross. That the shed blood of Jesus was truly enough and that there is nothing they can do to please God through their own works.
The whole thing with a focus on the clothing or outward appearence is also still a stronghold, even for many who leave. This goes all the way back to the man whos name they carry. Later in life he tried to repent from being so rash and causing a split and actually excommunicated himself. Which goes to prove he still did not have a proper understanding of the ban. He used it upon repentant sinners and it is still practiced today.
I believe the very foundation of the Amish was corrupt therefore the people who have participated in any of the above mentioned practices must repent and ask for God's forgiveness and return to the ways of God. He will cleanse us of all wrong concepts and practices if we are willing to confess.
Another stronghold in many of our Amish people's life is the vows they have made. Wrong vows bring you into bondage. It is wrong to vow to stay with a particular denomination. Jesus said, "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever loose on earth must be loosed in heaven." These are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. That means whatever we come into agreement with can bind us. But also we have the authority to become free from wrong covenents we have made. ( Whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.) This sin must be repented of and we must turn to the Lord with our undivided allegence. "Our God is a jelouse God" He does not share his bride with anyone, anything or any institution.
I hope this helps someone to become free from the slavery of fear and bondage.
PS. The Kingdom of God is not in meats or in drink (outward things) but in rightiousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. (inward things)
Love all your insights,
Pastor Jonathan Helmuth

I really appreciate this, Jonathan. Fear of man is another biggie! I recall those of my family who were members talking about their experience during "shtill sitza". (for you that don't know, "shtill sitza" literally means sitting still. It was the time after the last song ended where only the members of the church remained sitting to deal with church issues) Like I said, I was never in any of those things, but I gathered that it was often emotionally draining and left many frustrated after-wards. Like when a new rule was proposed many disagreed but didn't have the boldness to say anything. When its over they feel dissatisfied but unable to do anything about it. Doesn't that whole thing sound cultish? I'm so glad I was never part of that! ~Moses

[Moses]

Valerie, on 15 March 2010 - 08:49 PM, said:

How did you go about finding a church, and what led you to the one in Dalton area? I wonder when ex Amish leave, how hard it must be to find a fellowship they feel comfortable in-

I have observed that many of those that leave will often go to the church where the person that reached out to them attends. They are so vulnerable and Bible-illiterate, that once they become up-rooted from their religion, they will accept most anything that sounds good until they get around a little and learn to form their own opinions and convictions. We learned of our group through our cousins. Many ex-Amish go there. Some ex-Mennonite and a maybe one or two families without Anabaptist back-ground. In spite of our imperfections the Spirit of God goes there too and that's really what keeps us going there.

Valerie, on 15 March 2010 - 08:49 PM, said:

One more question-What is the whole hat brim thing about? I have never understood that seemingly hugely divisive, issue-
I know the english used to wear hats, back when, so wondering if it had to do with distinguishing Amish brims from English brims or What? I'm sure many are puzzled at what this is about. Same with crossed suspenders, straight suspenders. Oh MY!
Thank you once again Moses.

I really don't know where that particular non-sense started. The usual argument is that we must have a line somewhere and if you move it just a little, it will spiral out of control and we will keep going higher and higher until we are out in the world! LOL!!

[Eli Stutzman]

Heart and soul of the Amish to hat brims! Well, here goes. Hats such as the Amish wear were common in early America. Pictures from the civil war era show hats such as Amish wear being quite common. Settlers moving west preferred wide brims, probably for sun protection. During the early 1900's style worn by Americans in general changed to a narrower brim. Before those days the Amish and English both bought their hats at a local shop. Some Amish simply bought what was commonly available, but of course always in black. The majority of Amish had no problem with small changes, but a few did. Those few were our ancestors. The mainstream Amish still allow some change and do what is needed to survive. Not all do. That's where hat brim width comes in. Hats show that we are different from those other Amish (Sod Leut) who left the old ways and now wear narrow brims. Boys, three and one half inches. Married men, Four inches. Increase that by one half inch for Swartzentruber. Decrease the headband from one inch to one half inch also and you have the picture. Only the old style will do. Like our forbear Amman, we won't permit dissent. There are more trivial issues than hats that have split churches. It's all in the attitude.

[Valerie]

Thank you for explaining so much, giving insight into the heart and soul of the Amish, and the thinking behind these things-it seems the Holy Spirit was never a part of the Amish since the beginning, and a divisive spirit was passed down through the generations, almost like a generation curse that the Word talks about. And also like Israel when they didn't have a king and everyone was doing what was right "in their own eyes", so similar the Amish without Jesus as King. So it's left up to "thinking" and we know that our own thinking, at best, can get us in trouble. And these are examples of that. We cannot leave the Holy Spirit out. But we see that in the English denominations as well.

[Moses]

Moses, on 10 March 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

It seems like some of them respond differently then others about having devotions or personally studying the Bible. My family told me a while back of some Amish going to a business meeting out of state and they stayed with a Mennonite family for the night. The family had devotions in the morning at the breakfast table like normal with the children participating etc. The Amish guys were impressed! I'll ask Mom about it but I'm pretty sure one of them was a bishop!

Okay, here's my belated correction after consulting Mom on the accuracy! There was no preacher and they were out scouting new territory to start another settlement. The overall character of the Mennonites of kindly taking them in as well as expressing their concern of the Amish bringing bad influences to their community and their devotional time in the morning made quite an impression on them. ~Moses