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What would you say is the most powerful thing that holds the Amish in their religion?
Here's my observation and experience growing up Swartzentruber Amish:
LIVING LIKE JESUS AND BEING SEPARATE FROM THE WORLD.
I’d say the heart and soul of the Amish religion is their belief in living like Jesus – humble and lowly.
When I was still Amish, the question sometimes crossed my mind, “Am I right?” And the answer almost immediately followed with, “Who is closer to living the way Jesus did?” (of course I didn’t realize there are many people poorer or more ‘’humble” then the Amish)
That answer always seemed to stop the “small question down inside”: ”Am I on the right track?” Since I believed we Swartzentruber Amish were the most conservative people I knew of, I must be on the right track. Where else could I go? Is there a church that lives closer to the lifestyle that Jesus did? Like I said, the heart and soul of my faith was that I was convinced that our lifestyle resembled Jesus’ lifestyle closer than anybody else.
That’s why I couldn’t accept the idea of driving a car or having other modern conveniences. It was impossible for me to picture Jesus doing what many were doing who left the Amish. If Jesus wouldn’t do it, then I couldn’t either.
Thus I conclude that to be right was very important and it was by living a humble and lowly life because that’s how Jesus lived. That’s pretty much the bottom line, the heart of the matter.
Now, there are other strands of beliefs that weave the Amish religion, but I think that is the biggie. The rules were put there because there had to be a line somewhere. Since you must have a line, you can’t move it or you will eventually loose it. That was probably the biggest thing that held me in for several years after I got of the age where those issues came to my mind: living like Jesus and the immovable line of separation from the world. ~Moses Schrock
Heart and Soul of the Amish What do you believe is the bottom line of their beliefs?
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#2
Valerie 
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM
Thank you for sharing that Moses, I trust you're the same Moses that shared in Pain of Leaving the Amish topic?
One of my Amish friends who lives in Old Order shared with me some of the things his members purposely do without-as I was listening, it almost came across as a "competition" for who was living the hardest or without the most-yet they're generous in giving-
Alot of what Jesus taught about how to live on appearance seems to be followed by the Amish- it just seems like it's built on the wrong foundation, and that is Him crucified-
He certainly said "If any man, come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35)- and some of mainline Christianity does not come across as doing that in America, not in the eyes of many watching to see if we live what we believe- as one example-
With what you shared-I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question regarding Swartzentrubers-their countenance seems so sad-do you feel that they also believe they're supposed to be like the suffering servant, Jesus, described in Isaiah 53 "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief"-? And somehow, they're not supposed to be joyful-or is it really that there is a real lack of joy from all the rules-something that baffles me-I see alot of joyful Amish that aren't Swartzentrubers, so just wondering if they believe there's something wrong with displaying happiness, or they're just PLAIN not happy-(The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life perhaps? 2 Cor. 3:6) since they are the one's closet to me, I'm trying to understand more-
Thank you Moses (speaking of Moses, why are most Biblical names given to Amish Old Testament and not New Testament? They seem to identify more with Old Testament in many ways-or am I wrong? Since you say they're living by Jesus words-
Thank you, it helps since I care-
anyone else that can shed light-as well
One of my Amish friends who lives in Old Order shared with me some of the things his members purposely do without-as I was listening, it almost came across as a "competition" for who was living the hardest or without the most-yet they're generous in giving-
Alot of what Jesus taught about how to live on appearance seems to be followed by the Amish- it just seems like it's built on the wrong foundation, and that is Him crucified-
He certainly said "If any man, come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35)- and some of mainline Christianity does not come across as doing that in America, not in the eyes of many watching to see if we live what we believe- as one example-
With what you shared-I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question regarding Swartzentrubers-their countenance seems so sad-do you feel that they also believe they're supposed to be like the suffering servant, Jesus, described in Isaiah 53 "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief"-? And somehow, they're not supposed to be joyful-or is it really that there is a real lack of joy from all the rules-something that baffles me-I see alot of joyful Amish that aren't Swartzentrubers, so just wondering if they believe there's something wrong with displaying happiness, or they're just PLAIN not happy-(The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life perhaps? 2 Cor. 3:6) since they are the one's closet to me, I'm trying to understand more-
Thank you Moses (speaking of Moses, why are most Biblical names given to Amish Old Testament and not New Testament? They seem to identify more with Old Testament in many ways-or am I wrong? Since you say they're living by Jesus words-
Thank you, it helps since I care-
anyone else that can shed light-as well
#3 Guest_Arlen Yoder_*
Posted 06 March 2010 - 03:30 PM
"re: living like Jesus and the immovable line of separation from the world."
Moses,
I recently thought about the WWJD(What Would Jesus Do?) bracelets that were so popular several years ago, and the fact that is sort of like trying one's best to live like Jesus. I wondered what effect a conscious effort to live like Jesus has on a person.
Is living like Jesus enough? Can we in our own power try hard enough to be like Jesus that we finally meet the goal?
Also, what is the line of separation from the world? How do we define the line? Who sets the line? Can we set the line on our own? How detailed do we get when we set the line?
I think a key is the Bible verse Valerie wrote: "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35).
This key I think Jesus is asking of us is to follow Him very closely, to have a relationship with Him, to ask intimate questions of Him. I don't think it is enough to just use pure effort to try to be "like" Him.
When we are following Jesus and His Word we are not concerned about lines. We know that He knows much better than we what lines not to cross.
I do not have all the answers. I am just a seeker trying to find out how to "follow" my Savior.
Moses,
I recently thought about the WWJD(What Would Jesus Do?) bracelets that were so popular several years ago, and the fact that is sort of like trying one's best to live like Jesus. I wondered what effect a conscious effort to live like Jesus has on a person.
Is living like Jesus enough? Can we in our own power try hard enough to be like Jesus that we finally meet the goal?
Also, what is the line of separation from the world? How do we define the line? Who sets the line? Can we set the line on our own? How detailed do we get when we set the line?
I think a key is the Bible verse Valerie wrote: "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35).
This key I think Jesus is asking of us is to follow Him very closely, to have a relationship with Him, to ask intimate questions of Him. I don't think it is enough to just use pure effort to try to be "like" Him.
When we are following Jesus and His Word we are not concerned about lines. We know that He knows much better than we what lines not to cross.
I do not have all the answers. I am just a seeker trying to find out how to "follow" my Savior.
#4
Simon Peter
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM
Moses said:
I’d say the heart and soul of the Amish religion is their belief in living like Jesus – humble and lowly.
This concept was also considered to be essential 2000 years ago. The Pharisees fasted 3 times a week and had lots of rules to abase themselves or to have more 'inconveniences' than any other people.(Pride?) Man thinks it as humility... Gods sees it as pride.
Jesus never complimented the Pharisees for their inconveniences and neither will He compliment the Amish or any other people that think this will win Gods approval. Therefore the Pharisees were convinced Jesus is not from God or He would have complimented them. Do we have people like that today?
Moses said:
Like I said, the heart and soul of my faith was that I was convinced that our lifestyle resembled Jesus’ lifestyle closer than anybody else.
Upon careful examination we will see that the 'conservative' people were offended by the 'liberal' lifestyle of Jesus and His disciples. They didn't fast, didn't keep the 'law of Moses' according to THEIR interpretation. Were they serious? Yes, on their own terms and carnal interpretations. When the "Truth"(Jesus Christ)was revealed to them... they resented Him. When "Truth' is revealed to self-righteous people today... they will also resent it. Do you know people like that today?
Valerie said:
Alot of what Jesus taught about how to live on appearance seems to be followed by the Amish- it just seems like it's built on the wrong foundation, and that is Him crucified-
Yes Valerie... It must be built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. In order to build on that foundation... we will need to use His 'blueprint'. We must deny ourselves...take up our cross. When a person is condemned to die... his opinion and evaluation system isn't very important anymore, is it. When we take up our cross to follow Jesus... my fleshly opinions and evaluation systems are doomed to death.
Living on appearance definitely is on the wrong foundation... Jesus taught on issues of the heart. There were people who were very sensitive on how they appeared to others.... The Amish lift up the Anabaptists and 'their' teachings.... but the Anabaptists didn't care too much what others thought of them. They were more concerned on having their hearts pure in the sight od God. When they started teaching on externals and appearances ... the persecution stopped. Is that a coincidence? You decide.
Valerie said:
And somehow, they're not supposed to be joyful-or is it really that there is a real lack of joy from all the rules-something that baffles me-I see alot of joyful Amish that aren't Swartzentrubers, so just wondering if they believe there's something wrong with displaying happiness, or they're just PLAIN not happy.
Help me, Mose, if I'm mistaken, but various Schwarzentruber and conservative Old Order Amish think it a sign of weakness to show emotion such as shedding tears at a funeral. Shedding tears may even be forbidden in some communities. It seems to me this alone will make a persons countenance rigid and hard. There were people 2000 years ago that also were grave-faced.( a sure sign of 'holiness')
I have a burden for Christanity in America!!!
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Now its getting pretty bad when people are blind(to truth) and don't know it, naked(exposed) and don't know it, miserable(insensitive) and don't know it.
Brothers and sisters if we choose to serve the Lord on our own terms... He will allow us to go against His Word and His Will. It isn't His will that ANY should perish but that we ALL come to repentance. We must allow Him to change our thinking.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Thanks Mose, Valerie,and Arlen... lets all help each other become more sensitive to what God is telling us. I feel a little apprehension over some of the clouds on the horizon in our church. We must choose Christ and deny our 'fleshly mind' to interpret scripture.
God bless you and all that read this.
Simon Peter
#5
Esther
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:36 PM
On the subject of being happy or weeping, two or three passages come to mind in regard to our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 5:7 "In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety." NASB
Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions."
Obviously Jesus did not consider happiness unspiritual, nor tears immature. Rather, there is the the prayer in Scripture for us to emulate, "O satisfy us in the morning with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days." Psalm 90:14 And the promise in Psalm 126:6 includes both: "He who goes to and fro weeping, carrying his bag of seed, Shall indeed come again with a shout of joy, bringing his sheaves with him."
Hebrews 5:7 "In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety." NASB
Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions."
Obviously Jesus did not consider happiness unspiritual, nor tears immature. Rather, there is the the prayer in Scripture for us to emulate, "O satisfy us in the morning with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days." Psalm 90:14 And the promise in Psalm 126:6 includes both: "He who goes to and fro weeping, carrying his bag of seed, Shall indeed come again with a shout of joy, bringing his sheaves with him."
Esther
"...The kingdom of God ... is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17
"...The kingdom of God ... is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Romans 14:17
#6 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 07 March 2010 - 04:57 PM
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726']
Thank you for sharing that Moses, I trust you're the same Moses that shared in Pain of Leaving the Amish topic? [/quote] Yes that's me.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726'] Alot of what Jesus taught about how to live on appearance seems to be followed by the Amish- it just seems like it's built on the wrong foundation, and that is Him crucified-
He certainly said "If any man, come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35)- and some of mainline Christianity does not come across as doing that in America, not in the eyes of many watching to see if we live what we believe- as one example- [/quote]
I'm curious what area of life you are referring to that they are living like Christ? Did Jesus drive a buggy? Or run a sawmill? Did He have an engine to run his shop? Or shoot guns? Wear a hat? Suspenders? Smoke a pipe? I guess we think they are more living like Christ when we compare them to the "world" of today in that they live with less conveniences. But they (especially the Swartz.) have very little resemblance of Christ in reaching out to society.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726']
With what you shared-I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question regarding Swartzentrubers-their countenance seems so sad-do you feel that they also believe they're supposed to be like the suffering servant, Jesus, described in Isaiah 53 "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief"-? And somehow, they're not supposed to be joyful-or is it really that there is a real lack of joy from all the rules-something that baffles me-I see alot of joyful Amish that aren't Swartzentrubers, so just wondering if they believe there's something wrong with displaying happiness, or they're just PLAIN not happy-(The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life perhaps? 2 Cor. 3:6) since they are the one's closet to me, I'm trying to understand more- [/quote]
Thank you for bringing that up. That is another key strand of their beliefs. I should be careful how much I assume the rest of them think the way I did, but I got the impression joy is not really...oh how should I say, we are too sinful to have joy. We should mourn like it says in Matt. 5. I had (and still have most of the time) the impression of Jesus walking around mostly sad at the plight of humanity and you rarely saw him joyful or laughing. That's pretty major! It seems like they think a grave look is spiritual. But I think many just simply have no reason to be happy and are simply walking in darkness - to answer your question more pointedly.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726']Thank you Moses (speaking of Moses, why are most Biblical names given to Amish Old Testament and not New Testament? They seem to identify more with Old Testament in many ways-or am I wrong? Since you say they're living by Jesus words-
Thank you, it helps since I care-
anyone else that can shed light-as well [/quote]
I think you have made another accurate observation. They are more law and works minded and I guess naturally gravitate towards the Old Test. A key episode in the Bible they bank on is when the Israelites were supposed to put a fence around the mountain to keep them from going up to where God met with Moses. That, they say is a picture of the rules of the church! Old Testament - keeping the people from getting too close to God!
[/quote]
Thank you for sharing that Moses, I trust you're the same Moses that shared in Pain of Leaving the Amish topic? [/quote] Yes that's me.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726'] Alot of what Jesus taught about how to live on appearance seems to be followed by the Amish- it just seems like it's built on the wrong foundation, and that is Him crucified-
He certainly said "If any man, come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35)- and some of mainline Christianity does not come across as doing that in America, not in the eyes of many watching to see if we live what we believe- as one example- [/quote]
I'm curious what area of life you are referring to that they are living like Christ? Did Jesus drive a buggy? Or run a sawmill? Did He have an engine to run his shop? Or shoot guns? Wear a hat? Suspenders? Smoke a pipe? I guess we think they are more living like Christ when we compare them to the "world" of today in that they live with less conveniences. But they (especially the Swartz.) have very little resemblance of Christ in reaching out to society.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726']
With what you shared-I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question regarding Swartzentrubers-their countenance seems so sad-do you feel that they also believe they're supposed to be like the suffering servant, Jesus, described in Isaiah 53 "A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief"-? And somehow, they're not supposed to be joyful-or is it really that there is a real lack of joy from all the rules-something that baffles me-I see alot of joyful Amish that aren't Swartzentrubers, so just wondering if they believe there's something wrong with displaying happiness, or they're just PLAIN not happy-(The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life perhaps? 2 Cor. 3:6) since they are the one's closet to me, I'm trying to understand more- [/quote]
Thank you for bringing that up. That is another key strand of their beliefs. I should be careful how much I assume the rest of them think the way I did, but I got the impression joy is not really...oh how should I say, we are too sinful to have joy. We should mourn like it says in Matt. 5. I had (and still have most of the time) the impression of Jesus walking around mostly sad at the plight of humanity and you rarely saw him joyful or laughing. That's pretty major! It seems like they think a grave look is spiritual. But I think many just simply have no reason to be happy and are simply walking in darkness - to answer your question more pointedly.
[quote name='Valerie' date='04 March 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1267724764' post='726']Thank you Moses (speaking of Moses, why are most Biblical names given to Amish Old Testament and not New Testament? They seem to identify more with Old Testament in many ways-or am I wrong? Since you say they're living by Jesus words-
Thank you, it helps since I care-
anyone else that can shed light-as well [/quote]
I think you have made another accurate observation. They are more law and works minded and I guess naturally gravitate towards the Old Test. A key episode in the Bible they bank on is when the Israelites were supposed to put a fence around the mountain to keep them from going up to where God met with Moses. That, they say is a picture of the rules of the church! Old Testament - keeping the people from getting too close to God!
[/quote]
#7 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 07 March 2010 - 05:26 PM
Simon Peter, on 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:
This concept was also considered to be essential 2000 years ago. The Pharisees fasted 3 times a week and had lots of rules to abase themselves or to have more 'inconveniences' than any other people.(Pride?) Man thinks it as humility... Gods sees it as pride.
Jesus never complimented the Pharisees for their inconveniences and neither will He compliment the Amish or any other people that think this will win Gods approval. Therefore the Pharisees were convinced Jesus is not from God or He would have complimented them. Do we have people like that today?
Jesus never complimented the Pharisees for their inconveniences and neither will He compliment the Amish or any other people that think this will win Gods approval. Therefore the Pharisees were convinced Jesus is not from God or He would have complimented them. Do we have people like that today?
That puts it in perspective! Cuts away the carnal idea that maybe they have a slight chance: look at their zeal and sincerity. I think I must see more clearly that none of their "holy" stuff cuts any ice with God.
Simon Peter, on 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:
Upon careful examination we will see that the 'conservative' people were offended by the 'liberal' lifestyle of Jesus and His disciples. They didn't fast, didn't keep the 'law of Moses' according to THEIR interpretation. Were they serious? Yes, on their own terms and carnal interpretations. When the "Truth"(Jesus Christ)was revealed to them... they resented Him. When "Truth' is revealed to self-righteous people today... they will also resent it. Do you know people like that today?
I remember when I heard a message about who really opposed Jesus the most. It was quite an eye-opener!
Simon Peter, on 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:
Yes Valerie... It must be built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. In order to build on that foundation... we will need to use His 'blueprint'. We must deny ourselves...take up our cross. When a person is condemned to die... his opinion and evaluation system isn't very important anymore, is it. When we take up our cross to follow Jesus... my fleshly opinions and evaluation systems are doomed to death.
Taking up our cross and suffering for Jesus still will not save us - I'm sure you agree. Our salvation is soley on Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Any self-inflicted or sought-for suffering is simply sick! The cross mentioned by Jesus is simply persecution and nothing more and nothing we are to seek for! He was challenging the disciples to follow Him no matter the cost. After the crucifixion, we have to mention of taking up the cross and following Christ. Yet, an application can be drawn from Jesus' challenge but only as described above.
Simon Peter, on 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:
Help me, Mose, if I'm mistaken, but various Schwarzentruber and conservative Old Order Amish think it a sign of weakness to show emotion such as shedding tears at a funeral. Shedding tears may even be forbidden in some communities. It seems to me this alone will make a persons countenance rigid and hard. There were people 2000 years ago that also were grave-faced.( a sure sign of 'holiness')
I don't know... isn't weakness a good thing to the Amish? I don't know if they have a concept of trying to be strong. I know they don't show much emotion. I have seen tears at funerals and grave-sides, though. I think this whole peer-consciousness binds them up more than anything.
Simon Peter, on 06 March 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:
Thanks Mose, Valerie,and Arlen... lets all help each other become more sensitive to what God is telling us. I feel a little apprehension over some of the clouds on the horizon in our church. We must choose Christ and deny our 'fleshly mind' to interpret scripture.
Amen!
#8
Simon Peter
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 06:55 PM
Thanks Mose for the update.
It gives me a little more of insight what kind of mindset the Schwartz- Amish really do have. I was Amish but not THAT Amish.
I can only imagine how mind-boggling your story sounds to Valerie or someone that never was a member of the Amish. It's unreal.
The impressions we get by observing a people can be soooo misleading.
By reading your posts, I can truly appreciate your transformation... WOW!! Based on what you were taught by parents, church, etc. to what you see now in the Word Of God..... I thank God for your testimony.
God bless you, Bro
Simon Peter
It gives me a little more of insight what kind of mindset the Schwartz- Amish really do have. I was Amish but not THAT Amish.
I can only imagine how mind-boggling your story sounds to Valerie or someone that never was a member of the Amish. It's unreal.
The impressions we get by observing a people can be soooo misleading.
By reading your posts, I can truly appreciate your transformation... WOW!! Based on what you were taught by parents, church, etc. to what you see now in the Word Of God..... I thank God for your testimony.
God bless you, Bro
Simon Peter
#9
Valerie
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 08:57 PM
Moses, are you sure you were ever Amish? 
Amen to what Simon Peter said, what a transformation-thank you for helping me understand-I think it helps to know some of the mindset of those you wish to share with-this group is a difficult one-
and I appreciate your help-and points-I feel so sorry for this group-this ministry is so helpful, without it, we just wouldn't realize the needs. Or even believe they really need prayed for-
Amen to what Simon Peter said, what a transformation-thank you for helping me understand-I think it helps to know some of the mindset of those you wish to share with-this group is a difficult one-and I appreciate your help-and points-I feel so sorry for this group-this ministry is so helpful, without it, we just wouldn't realize the needs. Or even believe they really need prayed for-
#10 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 07 March 2010 - 10:47 PM
Arlen Yoder, on 06 March 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:
"re: living like Jesus and the immovable line of separation from the world."
Moses,
I recently thought about the WWJD(What Would Jesus Do?) bracelets that were so popular several years ago, and the fact that is sort of like trying one's best to live like Jesus. I wondered what effect a conscious effort to live like Jesus has on a person.
Moses,
I recently thought about the WWJD(What Would Jesus Do?) bracelets that were so popular several years ago, and the fact that is sort of like trying one's best to live like Jesus. I wondered what effect a conscious effort to live like Jesus has on a person.
I don't think the Amish actually personally try to live like Jesus. They simply grow up in the Amish environment and the idea that it fits Jesus' lifestyle is added on. Not that they are attempting to adapt to Jesus but almost the other way around. Many simply follow what they have been taught and don't question it because it looks and feels so right being so close to Jesus' way.
Arlen Yoder, on 06 March 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:
Is living like Jesus enough? Can we in our own power try hard enough to be like Jesus that we finally meet the goal?
No, living like Jesus is not enough! Even Him working in us to live righteous lives is not what saves us. That would still be our righteousness - our right-doing, even though we do it with His help. His right doing alone given to us as a gift is what saves us.
Arlen Yoder, on 06 March 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:
Also, what is the line of separation from the world? How do we define the line? Who sets the line? Can we set the line on our own? How detailed do we get when we set the line?
I think a key is the Bible verse Valerie wrote: "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35).
This key I think Jesus is asking of us is to follow Him very closely, to have a relationship with Him, to ask intimate questions of Him. I don't think it is enough to just use pure effort to try to be "like" Him.
When we are following Jesus and His Word we are not concerned about lines. We know that He knows much better than we what lines not to cross.
I do not have all the answers. I am just a seeker trying to find out how to "follow" my Savior.
I think a key is the Bible verse Valerie wrote: "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me" (Mark 8:34,35).
This key I think Jesus is asking of us is to follow Him very closely, to have a relationship with Him, to ask intimate questions of Him. I don't think it is enough to just use pure effort to try to be "like" Him.
When we are following Jesus and His Word we are not concerned about lines. We know that He knows much better than we what lines not to cross.
I do not have all the answers. I am just a seeker trying to find out how to "follow" my Savior.
One answer that comes to mind about separation of the world is that being born again separates us from the world. But as far as where the line is...well there really is no line that separates things into a "good" camp and a "worldly" camp. All things we use are of the world. The line that we cross over that makes us "worldly" is a heart issue and the Holy Spirit is there to convict and guide us in these issues. Right? The church has largely taken the place of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit I'm learning is the most able to bring about righteousness and keep one from the world and sin etc. Example: if you listen to a station that is not good, the Spirit will convict you. A church rule outlawing radios is (in my opinion) taking the place of the Spirit and infringing on our liberty. Thanks for the input! ~Moses
#11
Henry Byler
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 10:55 PM
This was a good thread to read and ponder over. I have been away from the Amish so long, sometimes it is better for me to just read it and not input to much.
Moses, thanks for this thread, gives us a chance to see your heart a little. I like what I see.
Praise God that He has let you, along with me and many others find the truth on the road to Salvation.
Sometimes I have a hard time to say what I feel, so I just say, GOD IS GOOD!!!
Moses, thanks for this thread, gives us a chance to see your heart a little. I like what I see.
Praise God that He has let you, along with me and many others find the truth on the road to Salvation.
Sometimes I have a hard time to say what I feel, so I just say, GOD IS GOOD!!!
#12 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 07 March 2010 - 11:16 PM
Moses, on 07 March 2010 - 10:47 PM, said:
I don't think the Amish actually personally try to live like Jesus. They simply grow up in the Amish environment and the idea that it fits Jesus' lifestyle is added on. Not that they are attempting to adapt to Jesus but almost the other way around. Many simply follow what they have been taught and don't question it because it looks and feels so right being so close to Jesus' way.
I should clarify this. Earlier I said their biggest thing is living like Jesus, yet here I'm saying they really aren't. As I look back over my life being Amish, I remember thinking we are closer to Jesus' way of living, yet, upon further thought I realize that we were more concerned about what the others thought. And worse than that: my conscience was largely tied to the system. I felt guilty running a chain saw. But not for smoking or getting angry or using bad language or other things the church didn't out law. See what I'm getting at? Was I really trying to live like Jesus? No. Yet when challenged with questions, (praise God! for His drawing Spirit!) I looked at our lifestyle and thought we were like Jesus. Seems like most of them actually are able to find assurance to a certain degree by simply making sure they obey all the rules. Pretty powerful system, yet so shallow. When they get out, they are as vulnerable as a newborn.
#14
Eli Stutzman
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Posted 08 March 2010 - 05:33 PM
Moses, your last post has expressed eloquently what drove my conscience too, as an Amish person. We have no Deitsh word for gossip, so we never use the word. We may "talk over" somebody, but never call it gossip. When the big boys get together on a Sunday afternoon, what did they talk about? In my days, 50 years ago, it was often off color jokes and girls who had low moral standards. Yet if we took a bicycle for a ride, or as you say, use a chainsaw, we would feel guilty as sin. This shows you how easily the human mind is shaped to respond to the will of those who wish to control you. As scripture says, "train up a child.." Yet we were always able to impress the local outsiders (the world) with our piety as Amish people.
Our view of the "World" was contrived to make us feel safe, since we did not fit that definition as long as we obeyed the ordnung. As you said, our consciences were tied to the system. What needs to happen to all who come out is to tie our conscience to a higher system, that is to let the living God direct our thoughts and actions through the Word and Spirit He has given. And that takes effort.
Our view of the "World" was contrived to make us feel safe, since we did not fit that definition as long as we obeyed the ordnung. As you said, our consciences were tied to the system. What needs to happen to all who come out is to tie our conscience to a higher system, that is to let the living God direct our thoughts and actions through the Word and Spirit He has given. And that takes effort.
#15
Simon Peter
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Posted 08 March 2010 - 06:20 PM
Hey Mose,
I'd like to ask you questions regarding your upbringing, background, and culture.... that is if you are up to it. How about having a discussion right here on this thread?? We will not communicate with each other behind the scenes...Are you ready?
I'll assume your answer is yes
so here we go..
My father-in-law and uncle have had several personal contacts with various Schwartz-Amish and they have some unbelievable stories at times.
1. Are the Schwartz-Amish forbidden to read the Bible except on Sunday?
A Schwartz-Amish man was admitted to an Amish 'counselor' institution(whatever you wanna call it) to overcome some personal issues. When asked to come to the 'study room' to participate in sharing time, singing, and Bible-reading with other patients and workers(All Amish).... he said, "No way!! We are not allowed to do that. I don't know any song in English." (???)
My Uncle said, "You surely know 'Jesus Loves Me'." He said, "I never heard of it." (???)
After several mornings of observing from adistance he soon started 'sitting in'. After several more mornings he started participating and was so invigorated and revived each morning. He started looking forward to the morning 'devotion time'. He wrote a letter to his wife about the daily devotions.
His wife immediately took the letter to the ministers who called a taxi driver and immediately went to pick him up. They felt an urgency to get him out of there before he is deceived. Never again would they sent a person to such a 'bad' place. (???)
2. Is a person considered 'proud' if he takes a shower or bath more than once a week?
(Is this too personal? If yes.. disregard it.)
I know in one community the men go swimming in a pond after thrashing wheat or oats to 'clean up' but are not allowed to take a shower. (???)
3. Buildings are not allowed to be painted as this is the 'proud look'. (???)
Mose, if you are not comfortable responding to these questions... just say so? I'm not affiliated with the news media.
Simon Peter
I'd like to ask you questions regarding your upbringing, background, and culture.... that is if you are up to it. How about having a discussion right here on this thread?? We will not communicate with each other behind the scenes...Are you ready?
I'll assume your answer is yes
so here we go..My father-in-law and uncle have had several personal contacts with various Schwartz-Amish and they have some unbelievable stories at times.
1. Are the Schwartz-Amish forbidden to read the Bible except on Sunday?
A Schwartz-Amish man was admitted to an Amish 'counselor' institution(whatever you wanna call it) to overcome some personal issues. When asked to come to the 'study room' to participate in sharing time, singing, and Bible-reading with other patients and workers(All Amish).... he said, "No way!! We are not allowed to do that. I don't know any song in English." (???)
My Uncle said, "You surely know 'Jesus Loves Me'." He said, "I never heard of it." (???)
After several mornings of observing from adistance he soon started 'sitting in'. After several more mornings he started participating and was so invigorated and revived each morning. He started looking forward to the morning 'devotion time'. He wrote a letter to his wife about the daily devotions.
His wife immediately took the letter to the ministers who called a taxi driver and immediately went to pick him up. They felt an urgency to get him out of there before he is deceived. Never again would they sent a person to such a 'bad' place. (???)
2. Is a person considered 'proud' if he takes a shower or bath more than once a week?
(Is this too personal? If yes.. disregard it.)
I know in one community the men go swimming in a pond after thrashing wheat or oats to 'clean up' but are not allowed to take a shower. (???)
3. Buildings are not allowed to be painted as this is the 'proud look'. (???)
Mose, if you are not comfortable responding to these questions... just say so? I'm not affiliated with the news media.
Simon Peter
#16 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:31 AM
Simon Peter, on 08 March 2010 - 06:20 PM, said:
Hey Mose,
1. Are the Schwartz-Amish forbidden to read the Bible except on Sunday?
A Schwartz-Amish man was admitted to an Amish 'counselor' institution(whatever you wanna call it) to overcome some personal issues. When asked to come to the 'study room' to participate in sharing time, singing, and Bible-reading with other patients and workers(All Amish).... he said, "No way!! We are not allowed to do that. I don't know any song in English." (???)
My Uncle said, "You surely know 'Jesus Loves Me'." He said, "I never heard of it." (???)
After several mornings of observing from a distance he soon started 'sitting in'. After several more mornings he started participating and was so invigorated and revived each morning. He started looking forward to the morning 'devotion time'. He wrote a letter to his wife about the daily devotions.
His wife immediately took the letter to the ministers who called a taxi driver and immediately went to pick him up. They felt an urgency to get him out of there before he is deceived. Never again would they sent a person to such a 'bad' place. (???)
1. Are the Schwartz-Amish forbidden to read the Bible except on Sunday?
A Schwartz-Amish man was admitted to an Amish 'counselor' institution(whatever you wanna call it) to overcome some personal issues. When asked to come to the 'study room' to participate in sharing time, singing, and Bible-reading with other patients and workers(All Amish).... he said, "No way!! We are not allowed to do that. I don't know any song in English." (???)
My Uncle said, "You surely know 'Jesus Loves Me'." He said, "I never heard of it." (???)
After several mornings of observing from a distance he soon started 'sitting in'. After several more mornings he started participating and was so invigorated and revived each morning. He started looking forward to the morning 'devotion time'. He wrote a letter to his wife about the daily devotions.
His wife immediately took the letter to the ministers who called a taxi driver and immediately went to pick him up. They felt an urgency to get him out of there before he is deceived. Never again would they sent a person to such a 'bad' place. (???)
It seems like some of them respond differently then others about having devotions or personally studying the Bible. My family told me a while back of some Amish going to a business meeting out of state and they stayed with a Mennonite family for the night. The family had devotions in the morning at the breakfast table like normal with the children participating etc. The Amish guys were impressed! I'll ask Mom about it but I'm pretty sure one of them was a bishop!
I guess they discourage bible study/reading whenever it threatens their religion. Reading only the German is encouraged but not forbidden. They will do anything in their power to keep you in their church including stifling Bible knowledge because of a sincere belief that you will be lost if you leave the church. I believe they would look at somebody simply reading the Bible as being more devoted in a good way as long as he doesn't start thinking he knows more then the preachers.
I totally believe its true that many don't know any English songs except country. I didn't know a single English Christian song until after I left. I knew the tune to Jesus Loves Me, but had never heard of that song.
Simon Peter, on 08 March 2010 - 06:20 PM, said:
2. Is a person considered 'proud' if he takes a shower or bath more than once a week?
(Is this too personal? If yes.. disregard it.)
I know in one community the men go swimming in a pond after thrashing wheat or oats to 'clean up' but are not allowed to take a shower. (???)
They don't have showers so only baths are possible and skinny-dipping! I don't remember that issue discussed in my growing years. Again, if it threatens the "old way" it might receive raised eyebrows. Its so craaazzzy! They will forbid change even if it means the young people refraining from kissing in a game they play at weddings! If they change that, where will it lead to?
Simon Peter, on 08 March 2010 - 06:20 PM, said:
[size="3"][b]3. Buildings are not allowed to be painted as this is the 'proud look'. (???)
That's not true in the Swartz. Amish. If you find a red barn and a white house, its probably Swartz Amish.
#17 Guest_Moses_*
Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:45 AM
Eli Stutzman, on 08 March 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:
Moses, your last post has expressed eloquently what drove my conscience too, as an Amish person. We have no Deitsh word for gossip, so we never use the word. We may "talk over" somebody, but never call it gossip. When the big boys get together on a Sunday afternoon, what did they talk about? In my days, 50 years ago, it was often off color jokes and girls who had low moral standards. Yet if we took a bicycle for a ride, or as you say, use a chainsaw, we would feel guilty as sin. This shows you how easily the human mind is shaped to respond to the will of those who wish to control you. As scripture says, "train up a child.." Yet we were always able to impress the local outsiders (the world) with our piety as Amish people.
Our view of the "World" was contrived to make us feel safe, since we did not fit that definition as long as we obeyed the ordnung.
As you said, our consciences were tied to the system. What needs to happen to all who come out is to tie our conscience to a higher system, that is to let the living God direct our thoughts and actions through the Word and Spirit He has given. And that takes effort.
Our view of the "World" was contrived to make us feel safe, since we did not fit that definition as long as we obeyed the ordnung.
As you said, our consciences were tied to the system. What needs to happen to all who come out is to tie our conscience to a higher system, that is to let the living God direct our thoughts and actions through the Word and Spirit He has given. And that takes effort.
Exactly! Its amazing how minds and consciences can be shaped to a system where it seems and feels so right, yet is so obvious when you step out.
#18
Eli Stutzman
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Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:13 PM
Moses, if you are in Wayne county area, you would be familiar with the Troyer church. That is where I hail from. We also have only dark red barns and outbuildings. Dat had a silo built about 1950 by a company from Mansfield. When they finished, they painted it white. This offended someone and it had to be repainted RED. Dark red. Houses white only, trim and all. Doors and frames gray or blue. Fences, generally no paint. At least not white. Unlike Swartz, gravel can be trucked in for your driveway. This similarity is due to our past affiliation with the Swartzentruber church. Almost everything you say about Swartz is true of Troyer Amish. Our buggies and harnesses are also exactly the same. One difference though, an orange triangle. Our attitude may be a little less severe.
Bathing was a matter of convenience. You washed "neck, ears, hands and face" at such times as a full bath wasn't practical. I still recall mem issue that order, only in Deitsh.
Our attitude toward Bible reading is exactly as you described it. The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung. We sang just a wee bit faster in church. Our hat brims are a half inch less than Swartz are. We too, are the only people that got it exactly right.
lol!
Bathing was a matter of convenience. You washed "neck, ears, hands and face" at such times as a full bath wasn't practical. I still recall mem issue that order, only in Deitsh.
Our attitude toward Bible reading is exactly as you described it. The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung. We sang just a wee bit faster in church. Our hat brims are a half inch less than Swartz are. We too, are the only people that got it exactly right.
lol!
#19
Simon Peter
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Posted 10 March 2010 - 06:27 PM
Eli Stutzman said:
Our attitude toward Bible reading is exactly as you described it. The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung. We sang just a wee bit faster in church. Our hat brims are a half inch less than Swartz are. We too, are the only people that got it exactly right. lol!
lol!Eli your post just made me laugh. I forgot all about the big wide brims on hats. The wider the brim... the more conservative... which is to say ..the more holy. LOL
Hey seriously, this quote 'The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung' gets my attention. I think this is a symptom of 'The Lukewarm Church'. and it is found in all denominations and non-denominational churches. Its the unspoken ' pledge of allegience' to whatever the ministers say. We notice this immediately in the Amish churches, but it is also in the non-Amish churches.. it's just more subtle. I think it is a lack of personal conviction and a personal walk with the Lord.
We must not rely on others to read and interpret God's Word and His Will for us.
Tell us more... Eli and Mose.. this is interesting.
By the way there is a community in Wisconsin that does NOT paint any building... nothing. And they aren't even Schwartz-Amish. No motors and no batteries!?!?
What was a typical day of work on the farm... at school... an evening at home with the family?
Happy posting :-)
Simon Peter
#20 Guest_DeeY_*
Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:01 PM
Simon Peter, on 10 March 2010 - 06:27 PM, said:
Eli your post just made me laugh. I forgot all about the big wide brims on hats. The wider the brim... the more conservative... which is to say ..the more holy. LOL
Hey seriously, this quote 'The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung' gets my attention. I think this is a symptom of 'The Lukewarm Church'. and it is found in all denominations and non-denominational churches. Its the unspoken ' pledge of allegience' to whatever the ministers say. We notice this immediately in the Amish churches, but it is also in the non-Amish churches.. it's just more subtle. I think it is a lack of personal conviction and a personal walk with the Lord.
We must not rely on others to read and interpret God's Word and His Will for us.
Tell us more... Eli and Mose.. this is interesting.
By the way there is a community in Wisconsin that does NOT paint any building... nothing. And they aren't even Schwartz-Amish. No motors and no batteries!?!?
What was a typical day of work on the farm... at school... an evening at home with the family?
Happy posting :-)
Simon Peter
Hey seriously, this quote 'The Bible has to be subordinate to the ordnung' gets my attention. I think this is a symptom of 'The Lukewarm Church'. and it is found in all denominations and non-denominational churches. Its the unspoken ' pledge of allegience' to whatever the ministers say. We notice this immediately in the Amish churches, but it is also in the non-Amish churches.. it's just more subtle. I think it is a lack of personal conviction and a personal walk with the Lord.
We must not rely on others to read and interpret God's Word and His Will for us.
Tell us more... Eli and Mose.. this is interesting.
By the way there is a community in Wisconsin that does NOT paint any building... nothing. And they aren't even Schwartz-Amish. No motors and no batteries!?!?
What was a typical day of work on the farm... at school... an evening at home with the family?
Happy posting :-)
Simon Peter
You're right about this attitude being in the English church, too--and it is more subtle, but it's still there.
Eli made me laugh, too, about the hat comment. And guess what? I know some English denominations that think they'll be the only ones in heaven, too...the ones who just KNOW they got it all "right".
I've noticed a few Amish houses in our area that have no paint. I think they're Swartz. Joe might know--it's in his area where he grew up.
